Conditional Immortality

[Guest]

Derek and Rick,

As indicated, I am only seeking to know the truth. My view is the traditional view until convinced otherwise. IMO the CU view is a very weak one. My method is to challenge the proofs of CI where they seem weak and thus see if they prove true.

This whole discussion of the four views (eternal punishment, CI, CU, and no hell) seems to be greatly influenced by personal feelings and philosophy with a lot of speculation thrown in.

[Guest]

This whole discussion of the four views (eternal punishment, CI, CU, and no hell) seems to be greatly influenced by personal feelings and philosophy with a lot of speculation thrown in.

That's a good point, Homer. Maybe it's because the Bible is somewhat vague about the afterlife. It is much more clear about how we are supposed to live this life!

[Guest]

Question for anyone knowledgeable about the annihilationist view:

What is the "official" doctrine, or what do you think occurs, when the wicked are annihilated? Are they quickly snuffed out after they are resurrected and judged, tortured for a time or what? It would seem if they are not enabled to live by some special intervention, they would immediately perish when cast into the lake of fire.

Comments anyone?

[Guest]

Danny,

That's a good point, Homer. Maybe it's because the Bible is somewhat vague about the afterlife. It is much more clear about how we are supposed to live this life!

Agreed!

[Guest]

Question for anyone knowledgeable about the annihilationist view:

What is the "official" doctrine, or what do you think occurs, when the wicked are annihilated? Are they quickly snuffed out after they are resurrected and judged, tortured for a time or what? It would seem if they are not enabled to live by some special intervention, they would immediately perish when cast into the lake of fire.

Comments anyone?

I think that they are punished for a time at least. How long that is I don't know. I think that they must be punished though, because there are different levels of punishment (Luke 10:12, 14), which would cease to be the case if they were all merely burnt up.

I think that in the interim between death, (say tomorrow) and the end of the church age (ressurection/judgement), the unsaved sleep (Rev. 20:5).

This of course runs into problems with the Rich Man/Lazarus story. But there are many theories about that (that it is a parable, already existed before Jesus spoke it, etc.).

God bless,

[_Rick_C]

ed.

[_Rick_C]

Greetings,

Re: the 'aside' of Christian living.

This whole discussion of the four views (eternal punishment, CI, CU, and no hell) seems to be greatly influenced by personal feelings and philosophy with a lot of speculation thrown in.

Then Danny commented:
That's a good point, Homer. Maybe it's because the Bible is somewhat vague about the afterlife. It is much more clear about how we are supposed to live this life!

And Homer, replied: Amen.

I can add an "Amen" to what the Bible's clear about as far as living a Christian life in a very broad sense, Amen.

The topic of 'Christian Living' is a good one. But in our 'whole discussion' we've considered the relative merits of universalism, and currenly on this thread, conditional immortality. During all of our discussions/debates 'eternal torment' has been considered too.

Danny,
In your 'Christian living' when you present your understanding of the Gospel; do you tell people that if they don't get saved before they die they will be saved in the afterlife? I'd like to know because you've never said if you tell them this or not. I'd be happy to hear you don't for apparent reasons. I also wonder that if you don't tell people they can get "saved" after they die, and someone comes to confess Jesus; at what point do you tell them they could have gotten saved after they died? Doctrine (the teachings we believe) isn't a separate 'thing' from the Christian life....

In terms of what the Christian life means to everyone who posts here; and whether or not the universalists here "tell" non-Christians they will be "saved" if they don't get saved before they die, shows something important about our discussions: Though "all of us" who post on this forum confess faith in Christ; we have very radically diverting ideas about what it means to be a Christian, leave alone living the Christian life. I say this as evangelization (telling people about Jesus) isn't a separate 'category' from the Christian life. The differences between the universalists and non-universalists on the forum actually reveals a distance. A very real gulf between the two. How far that gulf is or how wide the divide, I can't fully ascertain.

On the internet we interact with people we otherwise probably wouldn't. Like: here. If a local church where I live sponsored a debate or an open discussion between universalists and non-universalists, I'd probably go. But I couldn't be a member of a universalist church or support it. Just as I expect Danny and other convinced universalists who post here wouldn't join and support an old-fashioned 'hell fire and brimstone' type of church of either the conditional immortality or the eternal punishment view.

I just wanted to comment on this. Let's face it. We have very different ideas about what the content of the Gospel is and don't preach the same message. Of course, it would be possible for someone to get saved in a church that taught universalism as long as the basic Gospel was faithfully preached. People can get saved in Calvinistic churches in the same way, if just the basic, simple Gospel is proclaimed. But whether or not the converted people were to stay in those churches after hearing what they really believe about salvation (the full universalist and/or Calvinistic doctrines about salvation) would be another story...pretty well much another story altogether....

Be back on topic to Conditional Immortality soon,
Rick

[Guest]

Danny,
In your 'Christian living' when you present your understanding of the Gospel; do you tell people that if they don't get saved before they die they will be saved in the afterlife? I'd like to know because you've never said if you tell them this or not. I'd be happy to hear you don't for apparent reasons. I also wonder that if you don't tell people they can get "saved" after they die, and someone comes to confess Jesus; at what point do you tell them they could have gotten saved after they died? Doctrine (the teachings we believe) isn't a separate 'thing' from the Christian life....

The way I present the Gospel is not all that different from the way I've heard it presented throughout the time I've been a Christian. I emphasize how much God loves us; how He created us to have relationship with Him; how our sin damages us and alienates us from God (btw, I don't think it alienates God from us, but us from God); how Jesus came to show us who God is and that He is compassionate, kind, merciful, intent on our restoration, etc.; that Jesus willingly gave Himself on the cross to reconcile us to God and incur the penalty of our sin; that Jesus rose on the third day, thus conquering death; that someday we too will be resurrected; and that the time to enter into that reconciliation and follow Him is now.

If the topic of Hell arises, I explain that throughout history Christians have had various views about Hell and will then explain Eternal Torment and Annihilation (which deal with the question of what Hell is), as well as Calvinism, Arminianism and, of course, Universal Reconciliation (which deal with the question of who goes there). I will let them know that I personally believe that everyone will ultimately be reconciled to God, but they don't have to believe that. I also point out that scripture makes it very clear that judgement is a thing to be avoided at all costs, regardless of what you believe. Then I will remind them that they have an opportunity to begin walking in the light and life of Christ right now, which is the reason for which they were created.

[_Rick_C]

Danny,

Thanks for your answer. I don't want this thread to go 'off' into this sub-or-related-topic. I may start a new one with basically the same question so other universalists can reply.

I'm downloading lectures on dialup (I gtg)....
Happy New Year! (if they aren't loaded by then)
Rick

[Guest]

Danny,

You wrote:

how our sin damages us and alienates us from God (btw, I don't think it alienates God from us, but us from God)

When I read what you wrote I immediately thought of this passage:


1 Peter 3:11-12 (New King James Version)

11. Let him turn away from evil and do good;
Let him seek peace and pursue it.
12. For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
And His ears are open to their prayers;
But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil.”

Seems to indicate alienation on the part of both man and God.

(Sorry I'm off-topic Rick, but I was irresistably, innescapably led to respond. )