Conditional Immortality

[Guest]

Rick, Michelle,

We are dicussing 'opinions', not a vital doctrine or teaching from the Word.
If God deems that a persons life will end in eternal seperation or total annihillation, I have no real problem with either view. This issue really is not about Conditional Immortaility, Eternal Seperation or even Ultimate Reconcilliation, IMO.
It is about however, what we understand God's justice to involve. I have made up my mind at least here. I have resolved that God is always just and always right in His dealings with man. He did not consult me for advice with respect to how I view or feel about what's "fair". Afterall, He is the Potter. Sometimes God's justice is not remedial. It is penal.

Sometimes God acts with incredible mercy. But, He NEVER acts in mercy
toward the unrepentant, who continually reject Him. Mercy is not justice. Niether is it in-justice. "Justice delayed" is not Justice denied". He is patient. He does not take pleasure in the death of the 'wicked'. At the same time, He will 'by no means aquit the guilty' . I have come to accept that with one sin, I have forfieted all claim to life. "The soul that sins shall die". God desires all come to repentance. But that does not mean all will.
That part of God's Image is the realitve free-will we have been given to make choices. God set before Israel two alternatives, and only two.
"Today, I set before you Life and Death, blessing or cursing. Choose Life that you may live ". It is no different in Christ today. "God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life...whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the Name of God's One and only Son." You know, these verses in John never get "old"
to me. It is usually the point where I start sharing the Gospel with someone. I do not take this as a decree from God. But rather a loving appeal. Here is IMO, a distinction being made between God's decretal Will,
where this or that will come to pass, and the open ended appeal to Man where His desire for man is declared, with God respecting Man's choice.
It was the same for Adam, the Patriarchs, Israel, and would-be Christians today. Life or Death, repent or perish. The word "perish" we find in the bible, often describes that a person or thing is no longer fit for its intended use or purpose, i.e., it has become "worthless". It doesn't always describe a persons 'eternal destiny'. Sometimes though, it does. The context will determine its full meaning. And yes, I do believe the OT infered the Resurrection. But, not all Jews believed it did. A case in point, the Saducees did not believe in a resurrection. Some Jews even believe in reincarnation and universal reconcilliation. They also don't beleive Jesus is the Messiah for the most part. So, we do not believe in the 'uninspired' opinions of men as the source for our doctrine, do we?
We cannot use the 'musings' of mere men to determine truth either.
So your question with regard to the Image of God as being immortal, I would say yes. What do I have to hold up this view? Jesus of Nazareth, the 'Express Image of God". Is Jesus immortal? Yes! Do we bare that Image now? Not completely. Are we immortal now? No. Do we have the promise of immortality? Yes. Does the term immortality in and of its self
denote the quality of that resurrected life? No it doesn't. That has to be determined by the context. We know we will *all* be raised. But not *all* will be raised to the same quality of life. Some will be raised to 'everlasting' life, some to 'everlasting contempt'. Does the term 'everlasting' always mean 'eternal without end' ? Yes, when it speaks of Life. It doesn't matter at this point wheteher you believe in a 'living concious seperation" from God or annihillation. Whatever else we can say about it, the condition of the 'wicked' will be permanent. The Life we recieve as believers in Christ will be permanent. So, no, we are not 'born immortal', we are borrn into a state of 'death'. As I said, death means much more than an end to biological life. In Christ, we are 'born again' into His Immortality and Image. Of the 'wicked', what life will they have? What has God promissed the 'unrepentant'? What 'deliverence' will they recieve?
In Christ, that Image of God in us is being renewed, or better, made complete. Adam chose the 'wrong tree'.We are to look to another "Tree"
for Life, the Cross of Christ. God has promissed He will carry on to completion that good work which He began in us who believe. There are no such promises for the 'wicked' who remain in their unbelief. Hell will have no exit! Is it a living death? Or is it anihillation? Either way you choose to view it, the condition is permanent. One thing for sure, I do not believe Universal Reconcilliation is a sound biblical option. I have made it my point in almost every post on the subject, at the heart of the debate is really how one understands God's Justice.

Our Peace was Born in the Middle East!
Yeshu'a is His Name!
Shalom,
Bob

[Guest]

Mercy is not justice

It's interesting Bob that the way you describe "justice" sounds to me more like vengence. But the bible says
GOD IS LOVE and it says
Love fulfills the law , and it says
the weightier parts of the law are justice, mercy and faithfulness.
So here we see justice and mercy joined at the hip, Bob.
Not justice and vengence but justice and mercy.
And BTW no one claimed the unrepentent will be saved and no one claimed the God haters will be saved.
God's purpose for man is to conform us to the image of Christ and we agree that He is patient, but we define "patience" a bit differently.

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

I'm not sure what you're asking. As far as 'flogging' universalism has gone, I hadn't much more than begun to offer arguments against it, and still might get a new 'non-universalist' thread going some time. But be that as it may....

I hope the Christian Universalist threads continue. Perhaps at some point I'll have the time to post in greater detail on them. There is so much more to be said.

Anyway, do you want "a case made for CI" for the specific purpose of continuing our debate(s)? I'm asking because it sounds like you want to be "contra-CI". If this is what you want, the debate(s) will continue and you and the other universalists can naturally expect more "contra-CU" from me, Bob, and Homer.

More than anything else, Rick, I'm interested in understanding the CI position. My exposure to CI thus far as been primarily through Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists. I don't know if their form of CI is the same as that espoused by Evangelical Christians or not.

So, while I personally believe in CU as opposed to CI, I'm really more interested in educational dialog than confrontational debate. My goal in suggesting this thread was to hear a bit more about what you do believe, having heard quite a bit about what you don't believe. My intent has never been to try to convince you that you're wrong and I'm right.

But also Danny, I welcome challenges! It's one of the ways I learn!

I prefer conversations.

[Guest]

Steve7150,

Quote: "And BTW no one claimed the unrepentent will be saved and no one claimed the God haters will be saved".

Then you do not hold to the CU view? BTW, I do not believe the Love of Christ fulfills the Law for un-repentent God-haters either. They will recieve the Justice of God, not His mercy in Christ. They will "die in their sins". Now if you don't understand where I am coming from with respect to God's justice, I really don't know how I could make the case any clearer. Its an 'either- or' issue. Repent or perish. Life or death. Come to the Light or remain condemned and in the darkness where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Seems pretty 'black & white' to me.

[_Rick_C]

ed.

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

I'm going to bite my tongue (er, fingers) and not respond to most of your last post so as to try to keep this thread from turning into another CU debate. There are five or six other relevant threads in which to rehash all that.

So, now that you've established your orientation to Evangelicalism, your credentials and your hermeneutical methodology, tell us more about Conditional Immortality.

[_Rick_C]

edit

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

Yes, it is fair to say that I'm "gathering information", since I'm seeking to understand what goes into believing in Conditional Immortality. I'm not trying to "get more ammo for my guns" or any other warfare metaphor however. Half of dialog is hearing (and trying to understand) what the other is saying. I certainly have no desire to humiliate you (nor do I think I have the capability). I've stated repeatedly in the CU threads that I was not interested in converting anyone; only that CU be given a fair hearing. It's only fair that I give CI the same courtesy that I was hoping for.

I did not respond to your previous posts in this thread regarding CI because I got the sense that you were laying the groundwork and building up to a more thorough explanation. Am I incorrect in this assumption?

I can assure you there is no tactical reason for my silences. It is simply a time-management issue. I've been seriously considering for a while now dropping out of involvement in this forum as I'm having to devote more time to other responsibilities. I'd rather not, but I certainly can't post with the frequency that I did in the past. And I certainly can't keep up with your voluminous output! You bring up a good point; and I'll give it serious thought; that maybe it's unfair of me to try to participate when I can only respond intermittently.

In the meantime, I would still like to hear more about Conditional Immortality.

[Guest]

I hate these "discussions."

Rick asked me a couple of questions and I'd like to reply before I bow out.

Michelle, how do you get verses to 'post in the middle' of the page?

I use the List tags without the bullets.

Michelle? Where are you?

Um. right here. Were you expecting me to say something? What?

And this wasn't a question for me, but it made me realize something:

I know a lot about the Bible and theology. Due to my background I just do and I can't help it! I was 11 hours short of graduating from a Bible college and have spent at least 5 hours per day studying Bible & theology for the last 8 years. Being exposed to basic theology in the late 70's and early 80's while in Bible college, and posting on the web since 2000 with about 30,000 posts...I've learned more! There's hardly ever a topic that comes up I haven't studied already. Just because I have a 'deep' background in Bible & theology doesn't necessarily mean anything as far as whether I'm right or wrong. But I'm 'equipped' to get in on any theological discussion. Sometimes I think I know more than I do and have been proven wrong. From the world's greatest to the least of theologians; they have experienced this (we all have, I would think). Anyway....

I am in WAY over my head. I enjoyed thinking about, and articulating my thoughts, in reply to Traveler's posts, but at that point I thought we were just sharing points of view. I am not skilled enough to do "battle" with you guys. Have fun.

[_Rick_C]

Oh, there you are! Hi, Michelle

I hate these "discussions.

Rick asked me a couple of questions and I'd like to reply before I bow out.

Thanks, list tags, no bullets. Cool! 8)

And no, Michelle I wasn't expecting you to say something.
I was expecting anyone to say anything on what I posted from the teachings of Jesus.


I need a nap bad, BBL,
Rick