Hope as a legitimate reason to believe UR

Post by **_Homer** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:46 pm

PhilMan,

If an individuals sins once as in "illustration above" and they die the next day. do they deserve to burn forever.

the candid answer: yes

My candid answer would be "I do not know. God is the Judge and I am sure He will do what is right." However, no one has sinned just once.

My own opinion is that the person in Christ who commits a sin just before death is covered by the Grace of God and the blood of The Lamb. We all have sinned in ignorance and failed to confess it.

i am not trying to be ignorant. maybe you can give me an explanation for E.T justification for the "one sin" example that I can share with my atheist and non believing friends. I have failed thus far!

furthermore, I hope my tone doesn't come across to confrontational. its because I am frustrated when confronted with these issues from some atheists individuals that I am friends with. I am undecided on these topics for obvious reasons

I do not believe we should develop our doctrine in order to make apologetics to unbelievers more palatable. I sympathize with your frustration in witnessing to unbelievers but Jesus commanded that we not "cast our pearls before swine" (hogs have no use for pearls). There is a point where we must prudently "shake the dust off our sandles" and move on. This may need to mean no more than dropping the subject, praying for God to "open the door", and patiently waiting for opportunity.

On the other hand, we need to be prepared to answer for the hope that is within us.

Post by **__id_2529** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:21 pm

Homer wrote:dmatic,

He therefore takes responsibility for the humans falling into the "pit"!
This is news to me. Could you show from scripture where God was at fault? I have been under the impression it was the fault of Eve, who was deceived, Adam, who sinned with His eyes wide open, and the serpent. Is God at fault for giving the command? When He issues a command is He responsible for ensuring that we obey and at fault when we do not?

Is it possible for a single human being not to sin?

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:23 pm

Is it possible for a single human being not to sin?

Jesus was fully human. Indeed, He called Himself "the son of man" far more often than He did "the son of God". Yet Jesus never sinned even once.

Leviticus 11:44 For I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls upon the earth.

Leviticus 11:45 For I am the LORD who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God; you shall therefore be holy, for I am holy."

As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:14-16

Would God command us to be holy, if it were impossible to fulfull that command?

Jesus instructed His disciples to be perfect:

Matthew 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Would Jesus ask the impossible of His disciples?

Post by **__id_2529** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:33 am

Paidion wrote:
Is it possible for a single human being not to sin?
Jesus was fully human. Indeed, He called Himself "the son of man" far more often than He did "the son of God". Yet Jesus never sinned even once.

Leviticus 11:44 For I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls upon the earth.

Leviticus 11:45 For I am the LORD who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God; you shall therefore be holy, for I am holy."

As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:14-16

Would God command us to be holy, if it were impossible to fulfull that command?

Jesus instructed His disciples to be perfect:

Matthew 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Would Jesus ask the impossible of His disciples?

Perfect? what exactly was that mean. Without sin. or have never sinned. Never will sin again?

Jesus was both God and Man. NO??

Post by **__id_2533** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:51 pm

Homer wrote:dmatic,

He therefore takes responsibility for the humans falling into the "pit"!
This is news to me. Could you show from scripture where God was at fault? I have been under the impression it was the fault of Eve, who was deceived, Adam, who sinned with His eyes wide open, and the serpent. Is God at fault for giving the command? When He issues a command is He responsible for ensuring that we obey and at fault when we do not?

Homer, i didn't say it was God's fault, but that He takes responsibility to restore, reconcile, correct, and teach...etc. Similar to a "Responsible parent" who takes responsibility for disciplining his/her children and teaching them and raising them.

If you have time to read and consider the previous post about God's Law showing that the builder of the porch is responsible to erect a fence around it so that no one falls off, and the digger of the pit being responsible for the ox who may fall into it. This is not to imply that because a man dug a pit, he is at fault for the ox being ignorant enough to fall inot it, but he is responsible in case that happens. Thus he is instructed to cover it up.

The law of responsibility for a fire's damage if it gets out of control falls to the starter of the fire. It doesn't mean that it is his fault that fire burns the neighbors house, when all he wanted for it to burn was his ditch weeds, but it does mean that the starter of the fire is held liable for replacing the neighbor's house.

Similarly, when God built people, and placed them into the Garden, he could have prevented the serpent from even having access to the new creatures, but He didn't! He is well aware of His responsibility to make it right, becauase He already had plans to send His Son to redeem all mankind from their errors.

Hope this helps friend.

Peace, dmatic

Post by **_TK** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:14 pm

i dont know dmatic. i have a hard time thinking of God having any responsibility to do anything. He is gracious and loving toward us, of course, but i dont think this is His "responsibility." He is God, after all.

TK

Post by **__id_2533** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 pm

And He is the Father of Spirits. He is our Father, and loves us enough to assume the responsibility to correct and teach us the way to mature in love! He hasn't given up on us, though He may be exasperated!

Maybe thinking of it this way will help. Consider a scientist who builds a robot to serve him and eventually to be a role model for others that he will build...Things went relatively well for a time, but something was missing from one of the robot's programs, that the scientist had not thought of....anyway, the robot goes bonkers and kills somebody and starts his family's house on fire....Who is responsible, legally? The robot, or the scientist who created him?

This is a poor illustration....but it may help to show that He who builds or creates the thing is responsible for what the creature does.

Peace, dmatic

Post by **_Homer** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:55 pm

dmatic,

Should God be sued for negligence? Seems to me you need to think this responsibility business through a bit more.

Post by **_TK** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:30 am

dmatic-

The implication that God has "repsonsibility" in the sense you mean implies that God made a mistake, or that He isnt perfect, which of course is the antithesis of God.

You might POSSIBLY argue that God was "surprised" by the bad turn that mankind took, and took action to assuage the problem, but even this possibility stands on very shaky ground.

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:34 am

The implication that God has "repsonsibility" in the sense you mean implies that God made a mistake, or that He isnt perfect, which of course is the antithesis of God.

I think by responsibility he means that the fall of Adam and Eve was predestined by God as part of God's blueprint for mankind as nothing surprises God, nothing is unexpected.
So of course God owes us nothing and of course we don't deserve mercy or anything but the fate of mankind is not left to happenstance but ultimately is in the hands of God. And if it is in the hands of God it is in a sense His responsibility, not because it has to be and not because He owes us anything but because that's the way He wants it.
Anyway that's how it just seems to me , i could be wrong but i'm starting to think the vast majority of people are woefully incompetent of making decisions affecting their eternal destiny.
I'm not trying to relieve man of his accountability to God, he is accountable and we all get judged but the ultimate disposition on the grand scale i suspect belongs in God's hands alone.