My Case for eternal Hell

[steve7150]

Notice in Rev 20:11-13 that it is the "dead" who are cast into the lake of fire. These are those who are spiritually dead, yet physically alive.







Sounds like when Jesus said "let the dead bury their own dead."

[jriccitelli]

I'm not sure if that is a quote. But either way, I have often heard preachers say; 'when Adam sinned, he died spiritually'. I suppose they say this, since it is not in the bible, because they don't understand that they were cursed with physical death at that point, people are put in the LOF - this is the spiritual death, obviously the physical rots in the ground. gotta go my online class started...

[RICHinCHRIST]

You keep repeating the verse as “God is the Savior of all" and you continuously leave out “especially those who believe” as if the end of the sentence is neither a part of the context. It makes no sense to add ‘especially those who believe’ if all are going to be saved anyways, Paul totally qualified ‘all’ by the words especially those who believe.

I'm aware that the verse contains that final clause. This clause is what actually made me think of UR in the first place! Adding "especially those who believe" implies that even those who do not believe will be saved. It's like as if I said, "I like spaghetti, but I especially like meatballs". I like both spaghetti and meatballs, but I like meatballs more. in the same way, all are saved, but those who believe now are saved more. They are especially saved. They are especially saved because they are currently honoring the Savior. These will be spared the judgment to come, and they can experience the fruits of salvation in this present life. But the rest of the "all", the ones who don't yet believe, will also be saved but they will have a more difficult path to travel in the afterlife. They will still be saved by God, but it will be through a humbling refining fire. Those who are presently saved need not fear that judgment, in this sense they are especially saved. When we realize that the final clause implies that all are saved somehow, then we must deduce what they are saved from. I tend to believe that this verse is teaching that all will become true converts, whether in this life or the next. As I asked Homer, I still have not heard an adequate answer as to what Nonbelievers are presently saved from (or what they will be saved from in the future) if it is not a true conversion. How does God exercise His role of Savior over Nonbelievers?

[steve7150]

. Those who are presently saved need not fear that judgment, in this sense they are especially saved. When we realize that the final clause implies that all are saved somehow, then we must deduce what they are saved from.











JMO but i think the "especially saved" are the great multitude in Rev 7 who are around the throne and who came through the great tribulation (this life) and will be rulers with Christ helping disciple the rest of the world who are in the lake of fire. The ones in the LOF are spiritually dead and i think it is that fire that's needed to purify them.

[Homer]

Rich,

You wrote:

I still have not heard an adequate answer as to what Nonbelievers are presently saved from (or what they will be saved from in the future) if it is not a true conversion. How does God exercise His role of Savior over Nonbelievers?

Well, I would not say they are "presently" saved from anything. And He doesn't exercise His role as Saviour over them any more than He exercises His role as Lord. He is both Lord and Saviour to believers and neither to unbelievers. Saviour is in the nominative (think "naming") case in the Greek. A man may still be a husband (nominatively) to an unfaithful wife who has left him for another man.

"The Saviour of all men" must be understood as affirming that he is the Saviour of all people in some sense which differs from what is affirmed of those who believe, "especially of those that believe." Those who are "especially" saved, at the point in time Paul spoke are those who believe. It would be nonsense for Paul to say all will be brought to heaven, especially those who believe. And if he brings all people actually to heaven, how can it be "especially" true that he does this in regard to those who believe? Does it mean that he saves others "without" believing? But this would contradict what is plainly taught elsewhere; see Mark 16:16. When Paul says that he "is the Saviour of 'all' people, 'especially' of those who believe," it must mean that there is a sense in which it is true that he may be called the Saviour of all people, such as potentially, while at the same time, it is "actually" true that those only are saved who believe.

He has "provided" salvation for all people. He is thus their Saviour - and may be called the common Saviour of everyone. He has confined the offer of salvation to no one class of people; they are "neither Jew nor greek, male or female"; he has not limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him. Paul says no more than this. He says nothing about all being saved in the future, his focus is now. The verse is provides zero proof for universalism.

[jriccitelli]

"I like spaghetti, but I especially like meatballs".

Now there is something we both share! But not our metaphors; being Italian and having a Greek son in law who owns and manages a couple of Greek restaurants (and I always order the Keftedes, in Greek) I know that meatballs and spaghetti are two different things. Quite often we have them without pasta.

I like both spaghetti and meatballs, but I like meatballs more. in the same way, all are saved, but those who believe now are saved more. They are especially saved.

Spaghetti and meatballs are two different things, so rather it should read;
I am the Savior of all spaghetti, especially of spaghetti that is good.
I am a lover of all spaghetti, but especially of good spaghetti (what sense is there in eating bad spaghetti)
If God loves meatballs, and God loves good meatballs especially, then why force Him to accept bad ones?
If a meatball must believe to be saved, how can unbelieving meatballs be saved?
One thing that isn’t good is a charbroiled meatball, it doesn’t make sense to think that putting a bad meatball in the LOF is going to improve it.

They are especially saved because they are currently honoring the Savior… will also be saved but they will have a more difficult path to travel in the afterlife.

‘Especially’ saved? Is that like ‘extra’ virgin olive oil?
Post life traveling? Again what chapter is this?

They will still be saved by God, but it will be through a humbling refining fire.

Again, you have to be gold ‘before’ you go into a refining fire. And also; destroying and refining are two different things. You don’t ‘throw’ gold into a fire.

Those who are presently saved need not fear that judgment, in this sense they are especially saved. When we realize that the final clause implies that all are saved somehow,

I am not fully Arminian, but still and I would suggest we should ‘all’ Fear God, ‘especially’ those who are not saved; For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
In the same way; ‘all’ believers are saved, especially those who continue in faith.

… I tend to believe that this verse is teaching that all will become true converts,

There is a difference in a verse ‘teaching’, and thinking you have 'found a hidden clue' in one word that contradicts everything else. All the while ignoring the context and the mirroring scriptures of Paul.

whether in this life or the next. As I asked Homer, I still have not heard an adequate answer as to what Nonbelievers are presently saved from (or what they will be saved from in the future) if it is not a true conversion.

They are saved if they accept, He is their Savior if they believe. He is the Savior of all men, of those that believe.
God is still the Savior of man, even if some are not saved.

How does God exercise His role of Savior over Nonbelievers?

“Now hear the word of the LORD, O you women, And let your ear receive the word of His mouth; Teach your daughters wailing, And everyone her neighbor a dirge. 21For death has come up through our windows; It has entered our palaces To cut off the children from the streets, The young men from the town squares. 22 Speak, "Thus says the LORD, 'The corpses of men will fall like dung on the open field, And like the sheaf after the reaper, But no one will gather [them].'" 23 Thus says the LORD, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; 24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD. 25 "Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "that I will punish all who are circumcised and yet uncircumcised-- 26 Egypt and Judah, and Edom and the sons of Ammon, and Moab and all those inhabiting the desert who clip the hair on their temples; for 'all' the nations are uncircumcised, and 'all' the house of Israel are uncircumcised of heart." (Jeremiah 9:21-26)
(Note God exercises His judgement on all. Unless you are saved - you will not be saved, from the LOF)

[RICHinCHRIST]

Well, I would not say they are "presently" saved from anything. And He doesn't exercise His role as Saviour over them any more than He exercises His role as Lord. He is both Lord and Saviour to believers and neither to unbelievers. Saviour is in the nominative (think "naming") case in the Greek. A man may still be a husband (nominatively) to an unfaithful wife who has left him for another man.

But God does exercise His role of Lord over them, even if they don't submit. He still owns them. Lordship is synonymous with ownership. God does not cease to own someone just because they don't believe. But as I've said before, God cannot be said to be the Savior of someone unless they at some point submit. I think this would have been much simpler if Paul just said what are you are affirming more clearly, such as "God is the savior of all, but only those who believe". The word especially implies that those who do not believe are also saved (from something). I see how you are interpreting the verse, but I'm not convinced I must see it that way.

Spaghetti and meatballs are two different things, so rather it should read;
I am the Savior of all spaghetti, especially of spaghetti that is good.

Let's try, "I eat all pasta, especially angel hair"

The word especially implies that angel hair is NOT the ONLY type of pasta you eat. Therefore, the word especially in 1 Timothy 4:10c implies that others who do not believe are somehow related to God's saving act. The question is how exactly they relate (how they are saved). You insist they are not saved at all. This renders the word especially as insignificant.

[Homer]

Hi Rich,

You wrote:

But God does exercise His role of Lord over them, even if they don't submit. He still owns them. Lordship is synonymous with ownership. God does not cease to own someone just because they don't believe. But as I've said before, God cannot be said to be the Savior of someone unless they at some point submit. I think this would have been much simpler if Paul just said what are you are affirming more clearly, such as "God is the savior of all, but only those who believe". The word especially implies that those who do not believe are also saved (from something). I see how you are interpreting the verse, but I'm not convinced I must see it that way

You may be surprised, but I agree Jesus is Lord of everyone in a sense. They live and breathe and have their being at His whim. But He is Lord of the saved in another sense: they submit to Him. And this is just what I have labored to bring you to understand. He is the Saviour of believers in one sense and the Saviour of unbelievers in another sense as He is the only Saviour available for them if they turn to Him in faith, which, given free will, they may never do until it is too late.

He has "provided" salvation for all people. He is thus their Saviour in a sense, and He hasn't limited the offer of salvation to no one class (or classes) of people. Neither has He limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him.

[steve7150]

He has "provided" salvation for all people. He is thus their Savior in a sense, and He hasn't limited the offer of salvation to no one class (or classes) of people. Neither has He limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him.






Back to square one. Is he the Savior of all or the potential Savior? Is Paul speaking of things not yet as though they are or is he not. "As in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1st Cor 15.22
Here Paul could have said "even so all shall be made alive who are in Christ" and there would be no ambiguity but he referenced the "all" in Adam with the same "all" in Christ but regarding the latter he said "shall all be" meaning at some time in the future.

[Singalphile]

Regarding 1 Timothy 4:10 (" ... in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.") that we've been discussing:

Steve G discusses the verse in his Calv. debate with Douglas Wilson (here). I think it's in part 3. Steve's view, as I understood it while doing yard work, was that all men are born with God as their Savior, and yet a person can later reject the light and then come under condemnation and reject God the Savior.
In other words, all people are as infants saved and in Christ, but only those who do not reject God later actually remain in Christ and are "especially" with a Savior.

That strikes me as another reasonable interpretation that could replace or be added to one of the other two that seem very reasonable to me.