The Best “Proof Text” of Correction After Judgment

[Paidion]

Here it is! The best “proof text” in the Bible concerning the correction of the unrighteous after they are judged!

The Lord knows how to deliver the devout out of trial, but to reserve the unrighteous for a day of judgment, to be corrected.

Here is an interlinear for your consideration:

οιδεν—κυριος— ευσεβεις εκ πειρασμου ρυεσθαι— αδικους
knows the Lord- devout—out of trial—— to deliver-unrighteous

δε -εις —ημεραν κρισεως—— κολαζομενους τηρειν
but into a day—- of judgment to be corrected to keep (2 Peter 2:9)

The whole strength of this “proof” lies in the translation of the lexical form of κολαζομενους, that is, “κολαζω” as “to correct”.

I realize that some may object to this translation, but the Online Bible Greek Lexicon gives the primary meanings of “κολαζω”as:
1) to lop or prune
2) to chastise, correct, punish

Abbott-Smith's A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament gives the meanings:
1) to curtail, dock, prune
2) to check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punish

Originally, the word was used in reference to the pruning of trees, shrubs, or vines with a view to correcting their growth by shaping them. Later it was used figuratively with reference to the correction of people, e.g. children.

To translate the word as “punish” is correct as long as it is understood to be reformative rather than retributive. In English, “punish” may have either connotation, although it is more often taken in the latter sense, or even more likely in the sense of administering a penalty.

In Greek, the word “τιμωρεω” has the meaning “to punish” in the retributive sense. Indeed, every lexicon I have checked gives the primary meaning as “to avenge”. Strongs indicates that the word was derived from the two words “τιμη” (honour) and “οὐρος”(guard). Put them together, and you have the concept of a person guarding his honour through vengeance. In recording Paul's own words concerning his treatment of disciples of Christ prior to Paul's becoming a disciple himself, Luke wrote:

Acts 22:5 "as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished (τιμωρεω).

Acts 26:11 "and I punished (τιμωρεω) them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.

One of the best ways to get a sense of how a Greek word is used is to note how it is used in literature. The word is used in 4 Macabees 2:12 to indicate correction of children. No good parent punishes his children out of vengeance, but corrects them out of love.

[The law] takes precedence over affection for children, so that one corrects (κολαζω) them for their misdeeds.

4 Macabees is thought to have been written sometime between 100 B.C. to 100 A.D., that is, in the period in which the New Testament was written. It seems the author had been strongly moved by his reading of the deeds of Antiochus Ephiphanes against the Jews in 1 and 2 Macabees. So much of his “philosophical” thought and “devout reason” centers around the history he read there. In the following sentence he uses both “τιμωρεω” and “ κολαζω“ in a single sentence!

The tyrant Antiochus was both punished (τιμωρεω) on earth and is being corrected (κολαζω) after his death. (4 Maccabees 18:5)

The Judaistic belief at the time was that people's souls survive death. So the sentence seems
to say that while Antochus's enemies got their revenge on him and his armies here on earth, God began to correct his soul after death. The author apparently held that post-mortem punishment was remedial. Otherwise he would not have chosen the word “κολαζω” but would have maintained the word “ τιμωρεω” for Antiochus's punishment after death, too.

Though most translators render the word “κολαζω” in our “proof text” as “punish”, the Concordant renders it as “chasten”.

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (Concordant)

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

So this is the best you have! And it is just as I have thought. Statements plain and unambiguous are argued away by the universalist and ambiguous statements, usually of a general nature (God is love), are taken as proof of universalism.

So here you have enthusiastically touted a statement that can, according to your admission, be understood in two very different ways. And the noun form of the verb was spoken of by both Josephus and Philo as meaning "divine retribution".

Why not use the plain, unambiguous statements of Jesus to determine what the word might mean? Such as:

Matthew 13:30
New King James Version (NKJV)

30. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

What idea do you think Jesus meant to convey? And what do you think those He spoke to would have undestood Him to be saying? That the tares, though destroyed in the fire, would somehow afterward be turned into wheat? The answer is obvious.

The arguments for universalism can, at best, only cast doubt on the eternal judgement views. I read the debate between Thomas Talbott and Glenn Peoples and was struck by the desperation in Talbott's arguments.

[Todd]

To me, the argument is a simple one. If the majority of mankind is destined to suffer in hell forever, or even to be annihilated, then Christ's death on the cross was only marginally successful in achieving it's purpose as stated below.

Ephesians 1:9-10
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

And when does the following happen according to either of the eternal torment or CI views?

Rev 5:12-13
12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

Todd

[mattrose]

To me, the argument is a simple one. If the majority of mankind is destined to suffer in hell forever, or even to be annihilated, then Christ's death on the cross was only marginally successful in achieving it's purpose as stated below.

Ephesians 1:9-10
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

And when does the following happen according to either of the eternal torment or CI views?

Rev 5:12-13
12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

Todd

I think Paul's use of the phrase 'in Christ' makes this rather easy for ET or CI views to answer that question. You choose to emphasize the 'all things' when you read the sentance, but perhaps you do that to the neglect of the 'in Christ'

[Homer]

Todd,

You prove my point about proof texting with ambiguous statements. Does "things" refer to all individuals? Or to the restoration of creation to the way it was before the fall? Or is Paul simply referring to the Jews and Gentiles? If you read further in Ephesians you will find the answer to this mystery (Ephesians 3:6).

And what does "every creature" refer to? Is John referring to fish when he says "under the sea"? Is this a statement similar to rocks crying out or trees clapping their hands?

You have given examples of the best the universalist has to support their position.

[steve7150]

To me, the argument is a simple one. If the majority of mankind is destined to suffer in hell forever, or even to be annihilated, then Christ's death on the cross was only marginally successful in achieving it's purpose as stated below





I agree and that's why Jesus is called "the Savior of the world", not the potential Savior , not the Savior if man cooperates Savior, but his job is to be "The Savior of the world" , that's his job, can he do it?

"and we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world" 1 John 4.14 This IMO is the other Great Commission, that God sent Jesus to be the Savior of the world. The name Jesus means "Savior" a name given to him by God.


So will Jesus do what his Father commissioned him to do? "the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that i do , bear witness of me" John 5.36
"I must work the works of Him that sent me" John 9.4 Does Jesus have the power to do these works?

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" Matt 28.18


Can Jesus overcome the supposed sacred free wills of the world? "Be of good cheer , i have overcome the world" John 16.33


"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and in earth AND UNDER THE EARTH and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" Phil 2.10 Notice this verse includes folks under the earth! So now what happens to these folks who confess Jesus is Lord?

[Todd]

Matt & Homer,

Is it Christ's goal to save every person? If so, would you say that a batting average of less than 0.100 (?) is very good? How successful is Christ in your view in saving the world?

Todd

[steve7150]

gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

And when does the following happen according to either of the eternal torment or CI views?

Rev 5:12-13
12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

Todd


I think Paul's use of the phrase 'in Christ' makes this rather easy for ET or CI views to answer that question. You choose to emphasize the 'all things' when you read the sentance, but perhaps you do that to the neglect of the 'in Christ'http://www.matthew94.blogspot.com
http://www.knewkingdom.blogspot.com
mattrose






I think Todd just presented the entire relevant verses which happen to include "gather together in one all things in Christ" , without emphasizing any part of it other then the entierty of it. Man is in fact a created thing so he should be part of all things.

In addition the Rev 5.12 includes creatures "under the earth" perhaps referring to hell or the lake of fire.

[Todd]

So let's look at it this way....

The common understanding is that only those who are "saved" during their lifetime go to heaven; all others are resigned to ECT or annihilation. Firstly, in order to be saved one must first hear the Gospel. I estimate that only a small fraction of mankind has ever heard the Gospel. Of those who hear the Gospel, I would think that only a fraction actually confess Christ as Saviour and follow Him in faith. Therefore, according to these assumptions, only a fraction of a small fraction will go to heaven, which leaves the vast majority of mankind destined for ECT or vaporization. So then, Satan, the deceiver, who seeks the destruction of souls, is greatly more effective in his endeavor than is Christ to save the world. This simply cannot be. Certainly the Creator of all things has a better plan than that. Certainly Christ's death on the cross will deliver more than just a relative few.

Does God bear any responsibility for creating mankind with a propensity to sin? I believe that God does bear some responsibility, which is why He sent Christ to die for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

While I do agree that many go to their graves encumbered in sin; I believe that ultimately He will deliver everyone from death and corruption unto God, so that God may be all in all.

Todd

[Paidion]

Why not use the plain, unambiguous statements of Jesus to determine what the word might mean? Such as:

Matthew 13:30
New King James Version (NKJV)

30. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Because Jesus didn't use the word in this verse, nor did He use it in any part of the parable. To discover the meaning of the word, you need to examine passages where it is used.

And the noun form of the verb was spoken of by both Josephus and Philo as meaning "divine retribution".

How do you know that?