I am curious how those of you who believe either the ECT or CI views explain what happens to those who never have an opportunity to hear the Gospel in their lifetime. I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of mankind fits into this catagory. I'm looking for a scriptural answer. Please list any scriptures which support your view.
Todd
Those who never hear the Gospel
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
They spend eternity in hell suffering in flames or if they were not to bad then they get outer darkness alone forever, because all these people chose to be in hell and they all hate God.
So because God is love he gives them their hearts desire. Any other questions.
So because God is love he gives them their hearts desire. Any other questions.
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
I take the CI view.
The Bible says that the heavens declare the glory of God (Psalm 19:1). In other words, creation itself points to a Creator. Paul says that God’s existence and even some of God’s attributes can be clearly discerned from creation (Romans 1:20). But beyond creation pointing to the existence of a Creator, we also have a conscience that points to the Creators moral standards. Across the globe a general sense of right and wrong is agreed upon. Because people have creation and conscience pointing them toward God, even people from isolated tribal groups are without excuse when it comes to responding to God’s natural revelation.
The question becomes, if a tribal member did respond positively to creation and conscience, could they be saved despite their ignorance of Jesus? The Bible doesn’t address this question directly, but the answer may very well be yes! If God chooses to save such a person, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they found some other way to be saved than by Jesus. It may simply mean that Jesus saves them despite their ignorance of His name. Just because they were ignorant of Jesus doesn’t mean Jesus was ignorant of them. The Bible says that Jesus is the truth (John 14:6). If they were seeking truth, they were seeking Jesus all along!
In the end, we can trust that God will make the right decisions. God knows our limitations. He will judge people according to how they have responded to the revelation they did receive (Proverbs 24:12).
I appreciated Pinnock's "The Wideness of God's Mercy". Chapter 5 deals specifically with those who have never even heard of Jesus Christ. Can they be saved? And if so, how? Pinnock bluntly states, "It is not so much a question whether the unevangelized know Jesus as whether Jesus knows them... the issue God cares about is the direction of the heart, not the content of theology" (158). Those who respond to the light they've been given may be given more light, but if they die prior to that, they will be judged accordingly. This reality does not leave us without motivation for missions since our mission was never to declare bad news (hell), but to declare good news (The Kingdom of God and eternal life).
The Bible says that the heavens declare the glory of God (Psalm 19:1). In other words, creation itself points to a Creator. Paul says that God’s existence and even some of God’s attributes can be clearly discerned from creation (Romans 1:20). But beyond creation pointing to the existence of a Creator, we also have a conscience that points to the Creators moral standards. Across the globe a general sense of right and wrong is agreed upon. Because people have creation and conscience pointing them toward God, even people from isolated tribal groups are without excuse when it comes to responding to God’s natural revelation.
The question becomes, if a tribal member did respond positively to creation and conscience, could they be saved despite their ignorance of Jesus? The Bible doesn’t address this question directly, but the answer may very well be yes! If God chooses to save such a person, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they found some other way to be saved than by Jesus. It may simply mean that Jesus saves them despite their ignorance of His name. Just because they were ignorant of Jesus doesn’t mean Jesus was ignorant of them. The Bible says that Jesus is the truth (John 14:6). If they were seeking truth, they were seeking Jesus all along!
In the end, we can trust that God will make the right decisions. God knows our limitations. He will judge people according to how they have responded to the revelation they did receive (Proverbs 24:12).
I appreciated Pinnock's "The Wideness of God's Mercy". Chapter 5 deals specifically with those who have never even heard of Jesus Christ. Can they be saved? And if so, how? Pinnock bluntly states, "It is not so much a question whether the unevangelized know Jesus as whether Jesus knows them... the issue God cares about is the direction of the heart, not the content of theology" (158). Those who respond to the light they've been given may be given more light, but if they die prior to that, they will be judged accordingly. This reality does not leave us without motivation for missions since our mission was never to declare bad news (hell), but to declare good news (The Kingdom of God and eternal life).
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
I personally think the most honest answer to this question is that we do not know. The view that makes the most sense to me is that God intends to save everyone, and is patient enough and powerful enough to accomplish his purposes. I cannot prove this scripturally. But I think those who think they can disprove it (scripturally or otherwise) either are not open-minded or have a too-high opinion of their own interpretive and exegetical skills.
The bible's purpose seems to me to be to show us the way to the Father, through his Son. And to teach us how we should live our lives. That is where we would expect to find the most clarity. I do not find too much disagreement on this or other forum's about whether or not we are to love our neighbor
And if God's intention was to save everyone during the ages to come, why would it be necessary for him to spell that out? We would find out eventually anyway. It seems only important for him to answer our final destiny questions if he intended to eternally punish us or exterminate us.
I have been looking over the past many years for a worldview that makes sense. I find so much of "traditional" christian thinking to fall short.
I find many on this forum, from all sides of the argument, to be too convinced of their own position. So few people open enough to really listen and evaluate other peoples viewpoints and honestly admit that they (themselves) are fallible. It discourages me from participating in the dialogue.
---> (Jas 4:6) But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "GOD RESISTS THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."
--> (1Co 1:27-29) But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.
Blessings!
Mike
The bible's purpose seems to me to be to show us the way to the Father, through his Son. And to teach us how we should live our lives. That is where we would expect to find the most clarity. I do not find too much disagreement on this or other forum's about whether or not we are to love our neighbor
And if God's intention was to save everyone during the ages to come, why would it be necessary for him to spell that out? We would find out eventually anyway. It seems only important for him to answer our final destiny questions if he intended to eternally punish us or exterminate us. I have been looking over the past many years for a worldview that makes sense. I find so much of "traditional" christian thinking to fall short.
I find many on this forum, from all sides of the argument, to be too convinced of their own position. So few people open enough to really listen and evaluate other peoples viewpoints and honestly admit that they (themselves) are fallible. It discourages me from participating in the dialogue.
---> (Jas 4:6) But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "GOD RESISTS THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."
--> (1Co 1:27-29) But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.
Blessings!
Mike
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
Often we limit these "what about" questions to those in remote areas-- "what about remote rainforest tribes;" "what about the hindu among millions of other hindus in India" etc.
But I even struggle with more local "what abouts" in the USA. I was very fortunate to have been raised in a good Christian home. I am one of the lucky ones. There are many who are raised in absolutely horrible situations who as children are fight to survive (or wishing they were not alive) and who as a result grow up angry and embittered toward God, if they believe He exists at all.
Then there are those who are raised in very nice, perhaps Jewish families who become very successful and are very productive people but who never seriously considered Jesus because they are Jewish.
Think about it-- we don't seriously consider Judaism or Mormonism or Islam because we are Christians. How can we expect someone raised in another religion to think otherwise?
These are tough questions for me. There are plenty of Bible verses that suggest unless they call on Jesus they cannot be saved. And there are some others that leave some room for hope.
I agree with Mike that we need not be so dogmatic when it comes to the fate of every soul who ever lived. As Matt says, the good news is for now, not only when we are dead. So regardless of our position on this matter, the Great Commission still speaks loud and clear.
TK
But I even struggle with more local "what abouts" in the USA. I was very fortunate to have been raised in a good Christian home. I am one of the lucky ones. There are many who are raised in absolutely horrible situations who as children are fight to survive (or wishing they were not alive) and who as a result grow up angry and embittered toward God, if they believe He exists at all.
Then there are those who are raised in very nice, perhaps Jewish families who become very successful and are very productive people but who never seriously considered Jesus because they are Jewish.
Think about it-- we don't seriously consider Judaism or Mormonism or Islam because we are Christians. How can we expect someone raised in another religion to think otherwise?
These are tough questions for me. There are plenty of Bible verses that suggest unless they call on Jesus they cannot be saved. And there are some others that leave some room for hope.
I agree with Mike that we need not be so dogmatic when it comes to the fate of every soul who ever lived. As Matt says, the good news is for now, not only when we are dead. So regardless of our position on this matter, the Great Commission still speaks loud and clear.
TK
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
Alas this is a very very emotive issue for many of us, especially those of us who have been brought up in non-christian families. If Homer is right, my father will burn forever in hell without chance of parole, or is already doing so. My heart is going to resist his traditional viewpoint to the utmost. But he might be right. And I daren`t be anything other than agnostic on the matter.
One thing in favour of Homer: at least he posts in other sections sometimes too(!)
One thing in favour of Homer: at least he posts in other sections sometimes too(!)
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
Thank you for the very thoughtful responses to my question. To me, this is an extremely important question. Does the Bible adequately address this issue? The proponents of Universalism would say that it does. If someone doesn't think that it does, then perhaps he should re-evaluate his view.
It seems that most people, when considering this question, turn to their heart to formulate their view. This is a good idea since the Law of God is written there.
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Todd
It seems that most people, when considering this question, turn to their heart to formulate their view. This is a good idea since the Law of God is written there.
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Todd
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
Ian,
You wrote:
I believe universalism to be a dangerous heresy. It is all many of the unregenerate need to hear. They are unregenate, after all.Todd's position was once a relatively popular one but many universalists realized the usefulness of hell and have incorporated a sort of purgatory into their system. Universalism comes perilously close to coveting against God.
As to my view, I believe if CI is not correct and that if eternal puishment is, that punishment will consist of a sort of total separation from God. As I recall, "outer darkness" is spoken of as much as "hell fire" in the scriptures. I understand "fire" metaphorically. What I am certain about is that there is a final judgement. I have even heard Steve speak of the final judgement recently; if universalism is true there is no "final judgement", only an interim judgement. If there is another judgement, there isn't a hint of it in the scriptures.
Regarding the final judgement and those who have never heard the gospel I would offer the following for consideration:
1. God will do what is right. He is the judge and there is always the option of mercy. He is merciful and He will have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy (Romans 9:18). We are told the "merciful shall receive mercy" and "mercy overcomes judgement". There is hope in these words for those who have not heard.
2. And perhaps here is a principle by which those who haven't heard will be judged:
2 Corinthians 8:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12. For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
3. Another possibility is that God knows who would have accepted the gospel had they heard and will judge accordingly.
4. One thing that is clear to me from scripture is that those who have heard and rejected Christ have no hope.
5. I take no comfort from Romans where we read that people know of God through nature. They can know that God exists and that He is great but nature can not inform them of whether He is their friend or not. Nature can seem to be pretty cruel.
You wrote:
I think if you had followed all my posts on this subject you would know this isn't my view. I am uncertain between eternal punishment and CI. I believe that if a person looks at the various scriptures regarding the final judgement with an open mind, support for the two views will be about even. I see no scriptural support for the universalist position other than some general statements that can easily be understood in other ways. I believe univeralism is rooted in wishful thinking, which I understand; my wife and I have close relatives too that we are concerned about.If Homer is right, my father will burn forever in hell without chance of parole, or is already doing so.
I believe universalism to be a dangerous heresy. It is all many of the unregenerate need to hear. They are unregenate, after all.Todd's position was once a relatively popular one but many universalists realized the usefulness of hell and have incorporated a sort of purgatory into their system. Universalism comes perilously close to coveting against God.
As to my view, I believe if CI is not correct and that if eternal puishment is, that punishment will consist of a sort of total separation from God. As I recall, "outer darkness" is spoken of as much as "hell fire" in the scriptures. I understand "fire" metaphorically. What I am certain about is that there is a final judgement. I have even heard Steve speak of the final judgement recently; if universalism is true there is no "final judgement", only an interim judgement. If there is another judgement, there isn't a hint of it in the scriptures.
Regarding the final judgement and those who have never heard the gospel I would offer the following for consideration:
1. God will do what is right. He is the judge and there is always the option of mercy. He is merciful and He will have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy (Romans 9:18). We are told the "merciful shall receive mercy" and "mercy overcomes judgement". There is hope in these words for those who have not heard.
2. And perhaps here is a principle by which those who haven't heard will be judged:
2 Corinthians 8:12
New King James Version (NKJV)
12. For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
3. Another possibility is that God knows who would have accepted the gospel had they heard and will judge accordingly.
4. One thing that is clear to me from scripture is that those who have heard and rejected Christ have no hope.
5. I take no comfort from Romans where we read that people know of God through nature. They can know that God exists and that He is great but nature can not inform them of whether He is their friend or not. Nature can seem to be pretty cruel.
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
I believe universalism to be a dangerous heresy. It is all many of the unregenerate need to hear. They are unregenate, after all.Todd's position was once a relatively popular one but many universalists realized the usefulness of hell and have incorporated a sort of purgatory into their system. Universalism comes perilously close to coveting against God.
So what God wants is to terrify the "unregenerate" into bowing the knee by threatening him with eternal hell? That's the character of God who Paul said we love because he loved us first.
God who has unlimited power and unlimited knowledge needs to threaten,intimidate,terrify and horrify people into "loving" him. "Loving God" was what Jesus said was the most important command we should follow , and we should love God as he eternally torments whether by fire or whether by keeping in a quarenteened outer darkness people who for many different reasons never made Jesus their Lord during this age.
I have not the words to describe the horrible outcome that the great mass of humanity will end up in if your understanding is true Homer, but my hope is not in your interpretation of the bible, my hope is in the character of Jesus and the character of his Father and the plainly stated will of God. You call Universalism a "dangerous heresy" , the only doctrine which is God plainly stated will. You presumably think that God's will is just wishful hoping on God's part, yes God really wishes man would come around but there is just nothing God can do because man is simply to stubborn, to proud and his mind just can't be changed. When Paul saw Christ risen , why even that could'nt change Paul's mind and he still hated Christ. None of us are different then Paul, any person God reveals himself to would last about as long as Paul, about 30 seconds or less. There is no doubt in my mind, God will get what he wants, just a matter of when not if.
So what God wants is to terrify the "unregenerate" into bowing the knee by threatening him with eternal hell? That's the character of God who Paul said we love because he loved us first.
God who has unlimited power and unlimited knowledge needs to threaten,intimidate,terrify and horrify people into "loving" him. "Loving God" was what Jesus said was the most important command we should follow , and we should love God as he eternally torments whether by fire or whether by keeping in a quarenteened outer darkness people who for many different reasons never made Jesus their Lord during this age.
I have not the words to describe the horrible outcome that the great mass of humanity will end up in if your understanding is true Homer, but my hope is not in your interpretation of the bible, my hope is in the character of Jesus and the character of his Father and the plainly stated will of God. You call Universalism a "dangerous heresy" , the only doctrine which is God plainly stated will. You presumably think that God's will is just wishful hoping on God's part, yes God really wishes man would come around but there is just nothing God can do because man is simply to stubborn, to proud and his mind just can't be changed. When Paul saw Christ risen , why even that could'nt change Paul's mind and he still hated Christ. None of us are different then Paul, any person God reveals himself to would last about as long as Paul, about 30 seconds or less. There is no doubt in my mind, God will get what he wants, just a matter of when not if.
Re: Those who never hear the Gospel
Hi Steve7150,
You wrote:
So what God wants is to terrify the "unregenerate" into bowing the knee by threatening him with eternal hell? That's the character of God who Paul said we love because he loved us first.
Am I to understand that you read your bible and never notice the numerous threats and warnings, along with the promises if we do well? Perhaps there is another version I'm unaware of. One of the commentators I read once said if all the threats and warnings were removed about 1/3 of the scriptures would be missing.
Perhaps God is like the Wizard of Oz, just bluffing. (I've long been suspicious of that movie.)
You wrote:
So what God wants is to terrify the "unregenerate" into bowing the knee by threatening him with eternal hell? That's the character of God who Paul said we love because he loved us first.
Am I to understand that you read your bible and never notice the numerous threats and warnings, along with the promises if we do well? Perhaps there is another version I'm unaware of. One of the commentators I read once said if all the threats and warnings were removed about 1/3 of the scriptures would be missing.
Perhaps God is like the Wizard of Oz, just bluffing. (I've long been suspicious of that movie.)