Barclay was convinced (UR)

[Michelle]

Hi jriccitelli,

There is a phrase in this part of your post that I'm not sure I understand. Could you explain what you mean?

Here's the whole section:

So with that in mind I posted the other Matthew parables, but first concerning Matt.18:25;
‘All that he had’ I think shows that it would take ‘all that we have’, no matter what the amount, as you have said; we cannot really pay off a sin. We know our salvation is not by works but the value of having forgiveness is, and I think this verse is a reflection of Matt.13:44 and 45;
"The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls,46 and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it.
I think the fact that it was such an exceeding amount ‘more’ than ‘hints’ at the amount. Jesus did not ‘have’ to use such a huge amount to demonstrate the forgiveness.

Here's the part I don't understand:

We know our salvation is not by works but the value of having forgiveness is,

The value of having forgiveness is...by works?

[steve7150]

We know our salvation is not by works but the value of having forgiveness is,



The value of having forgiveness is...by works?

User avatar
Michelle







I think he means our salvation is from having forgiveness, but i know he will answer himself.

[Michelle]

We know our salvation is not by works but the value of having forgiveness is,



The value of having forgiveness is...by works?

User avatar
Michelle







I think he means our salvation is from having forgiveness, but i know he will answer himself.

Ah! So maybe jriccitelli means "by virtue of having forgiveness," ... maybe?

Edited nearly two hours later: You know what, steve7150, I'm not so sure this is what jriccitelli means, and so I'll wait for his reply. I think, perhaps, he means that forgiveness IS dependent upon a work, and that work is forgiving others.

[jriccitelli]

You are right Michelle, that is the danger of posting long posts, it opens up the door to mistakes and fatigue.
I guess we are all rushed today.
I believe we are saved by grace alone, through faith. Good call though.

I went back and realized i had my two posts in the reverse order, so i had to add the following edit to give sense for the reason of the post;

The following post is part of my answer to Matthew 18 concerning the parable of the 'certain king', and whether or not the slave being thrown into prison is a picture of future punishment or earthly punishment)
The Matt 18 parable is part of a 'series' of parables about the Kingdom of God and Heaven.
(I know Steve agrees with this so far as i have listened to Steve teach this on his recordings)

In fact i went back and listened to more than a few of Steves teachings on Matt 18 and 13 and found no references to 'Demons' tormenting in any of these instances, in fact I would agree with everything i heard in these recordings. I dont know what decade these recordings are from but I guess they are really old.

Anyways, remember the best gift you can give someone this Christmas is the Good tidings of the message of Eternal life in the Kingdom of God.
Wise men still seek Him.

[Homer]

Matthew 18:35
New King James Version (NKJV)

35. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

One aspect of the parable of the unmerciful servant that I do not recall being considered is Jesus' warning concerning what will happen to "each of you". "Each of you" appears to allow no exception. Thus we can ask if the consequence of refusing to forgive, which Jesus threatened, can be observed to occur in this life? The Greek word translated "tormentors" or "torturers" certainly sounds awful; you would think the consequence would be noticeable, and uniformly so (no exceptions), at least at some point in the life of each person the threat applies to.

Now it must be allowed that God is patient, that He doesn't always punish immediately as with Annanias and Sapphira, but usually allows room for repentance to take place. But if the punishment Jesus had in mind is not post-mortem, and it is without exception as Jesus said, then none would be allowed to go to their grave without suffering said punishment. Can anyone say there is any observable evidence of this taking place?

On the other hand, if the consequence is post-mortem, it is easy to envision scripturally the who, how, and when of the threatened consequence.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Matthew 18:35
New King James Version (NKJV)

35. “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

One aspect of the parable of the unmerciful servant that I do not recall being considered is Jesus' warning concerning what will happen to "each of you". "Each of you" appears to allow no exception. Thus we can ask if the consequence of refusing to forgive, which Jesus threatened, can be observed to occur in this life? The Greek word translated "tormentors" or "torturers" certainly sounds awful; you would think the consequence would be noticeable, and uniformly so (no exceptions), at least at some point in the life of each person the threat applies to.

Now it must be allowed that God is patient, that He doesn't always punish immediately as with Annanias and Sapphira, but usually allows room for repentance to take place. But if the punishment Jesus had in mind is not post-mortem, and it is without exception as Jesus said, then none would be allowed to go to their grave without suffering said punishment. Can anyone say there is any observable evidence of this taking place?

Hi Homer, I know this is primarily a conversation between you and Steve but I thought I'd chime in. I've never considered this parable referring to a "this-life" consequence before hearing Steve's opinion. I have always assumed that it is referring to post-mortem (and I still lean that direction). However, I do not see it as an impossibility as referring to this life primarily. This may sound too "ultra-universalistic" but there are some terrible consequences to sin in this life. I do not have extensive experience of these things, but I have experienced unforgiveness and seen its effects in my own life and those I know intimately. After my parents were divorced, I held deep seeds of unforgiveness toward my father (even shortly after I came to Christ until He convicted me of it), and I know my mother also did (before and even after coming to Christ). Unforgiveness can bring about a severe bitterness and can choke the life out of your soul. Whether or not I or my mom were given over to "torturers" I do not know (I suspect not since we repented not too long after conviction set in). But it is clear from Ephesians 4 that unforgiveness can give place to the devil; which I assume can refer to either demonic possession, difficult circumstances, disease, or even loss of salvation. These things can be seen as instruments of God to bring about punishment for unforgiveness in this life. Even if it is referring to post-mortem unforgiveness, we are not told in this parable whether there is no hope for the one being punished.

On the other hand, if the consequence is post-mortem, it is easy to envision scripturally the who, how, and when of the threatened consequence.

I agree. But it does say that the man will be given over to torture "until he has paid it all"... This seems to point to the fact that the payment can be made (Matt 18:34). You seem to infer that Jesus is speaking hyperbolically and intends to say "This man will seem to pay it off forever because, in essence, he will never be able to pay it off due to the debt's severity". I do not see why this must be assumed by just reading the parable at face value. Steve earlier mentioned, "Jesus could have said, "Throw this man into prison, and throw away the key!"" That kind of language would at least give us some reason to deduce that the prisoner would have no hope. But Jesus said that the man would have to pay the debt. The only question remaining is whether that debt is payable or not (or if it's forgivable in the future whether the man has a change of heart).

This also brings in the question whether God's punishments are restorative or not. Perhaps one's experience in post-mortem punishment will be ages long which would seem to point to Jesus' use of the large debt mentioned.

[Paidion]

The Greek word translated "tormentors" or "torturers" certainly sounds awful.

It's not the Greek word that sounds awful; it's the English word which some use to translate it. The first meaning of the verbal form of the word (βασανιζω), found in Revelation 14 and 20, according to the online bible lexicon is "to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal."

According to Wikipedia, the English word "basalt", a type of volcanic rock, is derived from late Latin, which was imported from the ancient Greek word "βασανος", meaning "touchstone".

It would seem that the Greek verb "βασανιζω" while originally referring to the testing of metals, was used later to refer to the testing of people. The scripture indicates that God tests people. He doesn't torment people. The translation "torment" may have appeared in the lexicons due to the fact that people have "tested" their prisoners (in an attempt to determine whether or not they were telling the truth) through torment. I think you will find that the word "test" makes sense in every instance of the word in the New Testament, and that your "tormentors" are actually "testers". It seems to me that in the light of this meaning of the word, those who will be in the lake of fire, will be continuously tested to see whether they are ready to repent.

[steve7150]

It would seem that the Greek verb "βασανιζω" while originally referring to the testing of metals, was used later to refer to the testing of people. The scripture indicates that God tests people. He doesn't torment people.





I think what this word means is really the crux of the point of this parable and again the crux of what happens to unbelievers in the afterlife. In Rev 14.10 "he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb."
This sounds like a reference to the lake of fire which it may be but in Rev 14.12 , "This calls for the patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus." This verse which followed 14.10 sounds like a description of how believers should live out their lives here on earth , so although 14.10 initially sounded like a reference to the afterlife if 14.12 is a contrast to 14.10 it then sounds like both are referring to our earthly lives.
The point is perhaps 14.10 is an encapsulation of the Wicked Servant parable in Matt 18 and if so may be referring to our earthly lives. In fact lack of thankfulness will lead to lack of mercy and lack of forgiveness and bitterness and ultimately will result in mental torment. The torment may be self inflicted and will give place to Satan and may grow over time unless the tormented repents and turns to Christ.

[Colin]

I think I look at Matt 18 (and most of what Jesus said during his ministry) in light of the fact that this was prior to his death and ressurection. In other words, during a time period where the old covenant was still in effect. At this time, no one could be justified through the attonement of Christ's blood, because it was still a future event.

If I look at this passage in light of Mosaic law, it seems to be an example yet again of how it was impossible for people to meet the demands of the law. Jesus explained many times that you needed to fulfill the "spirit" of the law, not just the "word", and of course everyone falls short. He explained this to show that justification through the law wasn't possible, and that his death and ressurection was necessary.

I'd be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts in this regard.

[steve]

jriccitelli,

Steve...If the Kingdom of God is synonymous with Gods Will, then why does Jesus speak of Hell and punishment so much, is not the future to be believed as real whether it is life or death?

I don’t understand this argument. First, I don’t agree with the premise that Jesus spoke about hell a lot. If you mean “Gehenna,” then He seems to have spoken about it less than half a dozen times. However, I don’t think a convincing case can be made that “Gehenna” means what we are talking about when we use the English word “hell.”

The occasions when Jesus seems (to me) to have hell in view would be the parables of the wheat and tares, of the dragnet, of the ten virgins, of the talents, and of the sheep and the goats. There may be others that I am forgetting, but this is a rather small percentage of the parables of Jesus.

As far as your last clause is concerned, I certainly think that the warnings in the parables should be taken as seriously as the promises. You are assuming that the parables talk primarily about the postmortem realities of life and death. I believe that most of them do not bring this matter up.

My reasons for such are as follows: The Parable in Matt 18 is part of a 'series of parables' on the Kingdom of God

I wouldn’t say this. I would say that all the kingdom parables belong to the same genre, but I would not say this parable is part of a series. I would agree that we find a series of parables collected in Matthew 13 and in Matthew 25, but not in Matthew 18. The parable of the unforgiving servant is the only actual parable in this chapter (additionally, there are some similes and metaphors, but that is another matter). The parable of the unforgiving servant is not part of a series, and its meaning is tied to answering a specific question asked by Peter. The message of the parable is that those who have received great mercy must extend mercy to others, or else there will be very severe consequences. Nothing in the parable tells us how to interpret those consequences. It is not said that they are postmortem, though that is one possibility.

most of Jesus’ descriptions of ‘The Kingdom of Heaven’ are concerning the future culmination of what and who will be in heaven. And what it is that gets us there.

I do not find this to be the case. It is, of course, a matter of interpretation, but I don’t think any of the parables mention what the Bible calls “heaven” as a destiny for humans. The kingdom of heaven is a synonym for the kingdom of God, and neither is synonymous with “heaven.” I believe the parables are explaining what God was currently establishing in Christ, as the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises of a divine kingdom under Messiah. In my opinion, the parable that goes further to mention eternal fates is comparatively rare.

Matthew 18:1 “At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"… unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven”
…but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea”
The parable starts with the ‘kingdom of Heaven’, and compares being thrown into the sea with what, something better?
Is this not a comparison of two different deaths? And how one would be better than the other?

First, these words do not comprise a parable (nor do any of the other pericopes in Matthew 18, except the one we have been discussing in detail). Thus, we do not have a “series of parables” in this chapter by which to bind or determine the meaning of any feature of the story of the unforgiving servant.

Two different deaths contrasted? Being cast into the sea certainly sounds like a certain kind of death. However, I do not see it contrasted with any other kind of death in the passage. I see it contrasted with entering the kingdom like a child. This is not a death. It is what happens when we pass from death into life at conversion.

I think you and I have very many differences in our presuppositions about several subjects. Unfortunately, some of those presuppositions inform the arguments you present for the specific disagreement about the meaning of Matthew 18, making it more difficult to discuss the matter fruitfully.