Barclay was convinced (UR)

[jriccitelli]

Although its been said many times many ways… Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith.
Old Testament believers ‘trusted’ (had faith) in God (in Gods Word) that the atoning sacrifices would cover their sins. By this faith they were saved.
Yet just offering the sacrifice was not ‘evidence’ of their having faith, their faith was evident by their works (behaviour). It could be said that repentance is the evidence of our faith
Although the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins, they did cover their sins, and having faith that God would accept their sacrifices, their belief was reckoned to them as righteousness.
Abraham ‘trusted’ that God would provide a Lamb.
You could be a sinner and keep the Law, in the sense that your sins were atoned for by offering the sacrifice. The effect the sacrifice had on the worshiper is what God was looking for, God still knew if the sinner either 'repentive' or 'rebellious', regardless of his action of offering and participation in the sacrifice, the sacrifice should have some meaning attached to it (And it did) and that meaning is what should have changed the heart of the worshipper (Person offering). Sure it was a sacrifice of ones material wealth and welfare, but God looked for remorse and brokenness, in response to His Holiness and forgiveness, and I think a consideration of the poor ‘innocent’ animal ‘who’ was slain in our place.
So ‘all’ faith placed in Gods forgiveness was fulfilled on the Cross, whether you looked forward or back.

So…this brings me back to the question of ‘how is one saved’ if they are in hell (purgatory or wherever).
Q. Are they saved by Faith, or by works or by suffering for their own sins?
They can no longer be saved by faith, for apparently they have already died, and are witnessing what God warned them about.
They cannot be saved by works, for it is because of your works you end up in hell, and torment.
Q. Are they then saved by suffering for their own sins (Or paying for their own sins, if I dare suggest Christ paid for our sins)?
I suppose UR will say they suffer for their sins until they sincerely repent, trust Jesus for His sacrifice and are then pulled out of the fire.

I still don’t see this jiving with the Theology of Faith, Belief, Justice, Mortality, Warnings, Examples, the fear of God, the Test of mankind, the finality of Hell, Gods stern revelation of His displeasure with mans Sin, and the irreversible danger of accepting such a theory as biblical.

[steve7150]

They can no longer be saved by faith, for apparently they have already died, and are witnessing what God warned them about.












According to dictionary.com the first two definitions of faith are confidence and trust, which is what Thomas finally obtained after he saw the risen Christ and felt his wounds. In Mark 16 the resurrected Christ "upbraided" the eleven for their lack of faith, yet they believed after they saw him. Additionally Paul did'nt believe until he saw Christ yet all these people were not only saved but are pillars of the faith.

[RICHinCHRIST]

According to dictionary.com the first two definitions of faith are confidence and trust, which is what Thomas finally obtained after he saw the risen Christ and felt his wounds. In Mark 16 the resurrected Christ "upbraided" the eleven for their lack of faith, yet they believed after they saw him. Additionally Paul did'nt believe until he saw Christ yet all these people were not only saved but are pillars of the faith.

This is an important point in defending UR. As I mentioned earlier, it may be the very essence of the question when it comes down to it. Does God show partiality or not?

Thomas said he 'would not believe' unless he saw the wounds. You cannot be saved without believing in the resurrection of Christ. Thomas could have went to his grave denying the resurrection, therefore dying lost. But Christ appeared to him, and that changed everything!

Now, either Thomas was one of the predestined elect (Calvinism), or he was just one very blessed guy. There is no question, though, that he had more of a chance to follow Christ than 99.9% of the human race. Does God show partiality? The Bible says He does not (Rom 2:11, in the context of God's judgments). Is God unjust in giving additional chances to those who didn't have the privilege Thomas had? Conversely, is God unjust in not giving an equal chance to all people to see the risen Christ and respond accordingly?

If God loves the 99.9% as much as He loved the apostles, then how can He not save them? The only answer I can think of is if God does not equally love all people (like in Calvinism--or if the lost are the spawn of Satan and retain no individuality or free-will, but are just puppets of the devil). If He does love all people (like Arminianism suggests), why does He not give better evidence or opportunity to those who die rejecting Him?

I'm still not convinced of UR yet, but I am seriously wrestling with these questions. Either God loves all people without partiality, or He does not. Plain and simple. If He does not, then perhaps Calvinism is true after all.

[Homer]

But Calvinism and Universalism are similar in many aspects. Both are deterministic systems. From the Calvinist "TULIP" the Universalist also has the "U" (unconditional election), the difference being Calvinism limits the elect while in Universalism all are elect; God's determined will is that all will be saved. And both hold to the "I" (irresistible grace). The Calvinist says it happens in this life, Universalism says it happens sooner or later in hell (although they don't seem to allow for "sooner", as in "right now" for some reason that I don't get). Either way, God intervenes to change the heart prior to faith.

N.L. Rice, the noted Calvinist apologist of the 10th century, stated that the heart is regenerated so that the gospel is loved when it is heard, just as an infant naturally enjoys music the first time it is heard. And the Universalist claims God never lets up until the heart of the one enduring hell is changed.

Calvinists actually believe in the same sort of free-will that the Universalists believe in. The will of the person is changed so that the person freely does exactly what he desires. Before regeneration he loves sin which is exactly what he desires.

Perhaps free-will as Arminians understand it is a myth?

[Ralph]

After considering the Scriptures along with foregoing materials in this thread and others, here is where I stand to date:

The Lord God, our creator and sustainer, is always right, has always done what is right, and will always do what is right. Knowing that, I will forever be content in this life and in the next. I will trust Him. God and His will are perfect. God is love.

I am content to be personally corrected now and in the future as the Lord sees fit, to prepare me to live in His everlasting kingdom where everything is right. I will trust Him. God and His will are perfect. God is love.

I will continue to pray for the salvation of all people everywhere. I will pray for the salvation of individuals and for the salvation of rooms of people and for the salvation of cities of people and for the salvation of countries of people and for the salvation of the whole world of people, as the Lord’s love fills me. Such prayers for the salvation of humankind are consistent with God’s perfect will and His character, which is love.

[steve7150]

But Calvinism and Universalism are similar in many aspects. Both are deterministic systems. From the Calvinist "TULIP" the Universalist also has the "U" (unconditional election), the difference being Calvinism limits the elect while in Universalism all are elect; God's determined will is that all will be saved. And both hold to the "I" (irresistible grace). The Calvinist says it happens in this life, Universalism says it happens sooner or later in hell (although they don't seem to allow for "sooner", as in "right now" for some reason that I don't get). Either way, God intervenes to change the heart prior to faith.










The verses used by URs are not necessarily deterministic but may be prophetic.

[darinhouston]

the difference being Calvinism limits the elect while in Universalism all are elect;

I'm not a universalist, but, note being "elect" is so much more than whether you make it to the new earth in "some" capacity. I believe election is primarily about our roles here and now, which certainly conveys benefits in the hereafter as well, but this reductionist view of election has more in common with the Calvinist view of election than most Arminians I know.

[Paidion]

So…this brings me back to the question of ‘how is one saved’ if they are in hell (purgatory or wherever).
Q. Are they saved by Faith, or by works or by suffering for their own sins?
They can no longer be saved by faith, for apparently they have already died, and are witnessing what God warned them about.
They cannot be saved by works, for it is because of your works you end up in hell, and torment.
Q. Are they then saved by suffering for their own sins (Or paying for their own sins, if I dare suggest Christ paid for our sins)?
I suppose UR will say they suffer for their sins until they sincerely repent, trust Jesus for His sacrifice and are then pulled out of the fire.

Are you asking about salvation from hell or salvation from sin? Salvation from sin is necessary before anyone can be saved from hell.
Salvation from sin does NOT refer to Christ paying for our sins. No one can pay for anyone else's sins. Furthermore sins don't require being paid for. The person who commits them requires regeneration so that he ceases from sin. He requires being delivered (or saved) from sin. He can be delivered from sin only by becoming a disciple of Christ. He can become a disciple of Christ only in the way that He taught, by forsaking all and following him. He must submit to the authority of Christ in his life. When he does that, he is on the narrow path which leads to life. As long as he stays on that path and relates to Christ, he is in the process of being saved from sin. He who began a good work in him will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ. Thus salvation from sin will be complete, and he will be ready for eternity with God.

The way of salvation is always the same. It could be a long process for those who begin to be corrected in hell. They must submit to the authority of Christ just as you and I have. They must be regenerated and saved from their sin just as you and I did. Christ died for them just as he did for you and me. No one is saved from sin through self-effort ("works"). No one is ready for eternity with God through faith. Rather through continuing faith in Christ he is in the process of being saved from sin. When the process is completed, he is ready for eternity with God. It matters not whether premortem or post mortem. The way of salvation is the same.

I know .... some say we become ready for eternity with God now. We can make a beginning now. But we cannot be fully ready now. We can be fully ready only when the salvation process is complete. For if we could be fully ready now then it would be impossible to get off the narrow path or reject God (as Calvinists believe). But since such rejection has often happened. One biblical example: Simon the magician. This man "believed and was baptized". But history shows that he went back to his old ways, considering himself to be a great God. At his death, a Roman official erected a statue to his honour with the inscription, "To the Great God Simon."

[Ian]

Hi Paidion,

This seems to me one of your most direct posts on this matter. If this were the only post of yours that I had ever read, I would straight away think to myself, "what then does he think that the death of Christ actually accomplished?"
Well, actually I am thinking that, being of short memory in relation to your previous posts on the matter. Could you expound again briefly your thoughts on the purpose of the death of Christ? I began to scroll through your many posts looking for your opinion on this, but in the end decided to resort to this post (!).Thanks

[Homer]

Paidion,

Since you have not responded to my post of Dec. 29 under "the Enabling Grace of God" thread I will ask it again here:

But can you explain how or when a person receives eternal life, that is, when a person's state is changed from "lost" to being in Christ? I arranged your post into steps to help us understand your position:

I have also been saying that salvation does not come to us from "trusting in the finished work of Christ" in order to get to heaven, but that this enabling grace becomes available:

1. by repenting (having a change of heart and mind),

2. submitting ourselves to the authority of Christ,

3. sealing our commitment with baptism,

4. and coöperating with the enabling grace of God in order to move toward perfection,

5. believing that we will actually be delivered,

6. and receiving the finishing touches of that process at our resurrection at the second coming of Christ.

Some of the above steps would appear to be a one time thing and others a daily thing. How does a person know they are in Christ? And when they are out?

Being saved or lost is a binary status; sanctification is an ongoing process and I question whether anyone becomes perfected in this life, with which you seem to agree. So if justification is not by faith, a person can never know if or when they are saved or not.

Jesus at least three times in the Gospel of John (3:36, 5:24, and 6:54) speaks of persons having eternal life in the present tense; He says they possess it now. There is continuity between this life and the future life.

The scriptures are univocal in saying that all will be judged according to their works at the last day. You say every lost person will be regenerated and saved in hell. What of their judgement? By what works will they be judged?

You wrote:

No one is ready for eternity with God through faith.

So the thief on the cross died and went to hell, was sanctified, and made it to Jesus in paradise before the day was over? What happened to your aeon in hell?

Rather through continuing faith in Christ he is in the process of being saved from sin. When the process is completed, he is ready for eternity with God. It matters not whether premortem or post mortem. The way of salvation is the same.

Those in hell can not be saved by faith either if we can not be in this life.