Paidion & Perry on EE and ER

[Paidion]

Homer, my position has been and is now (no inconsistency) that the purifying fires of God's love will be neither more nor less than is necessary to help each person to repent. Throughout that process, the free will is never touched. That's why I say that God never interferes directly with man's free will, that is, manipulates it so that the man will do good things instead of evil. Nor will He manipulate man's will to cause him to repent (have a change of heart and mind). Every person who repents or will repent will do so of his own free will.

God's influence toward repentance for the lost may be very strong. But it's still not causation. Even if someone holds a gun to your head and demands your money, he doesn't cause you to give him the money. You haven't lost your free will. You can choose to withhold your money, if you are willing to face the likely consequence. I am sure that many will resist God's correction for a long time. But others will need little persuasion.

So I do not say that all people will require "ages of ages" of correction. I also think the severity of the correction will vary. Origen (185-255 A.D.) indicated that there would be a variation as to the response to God's loving correction. He wrote:

This restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who were once enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached. De Principiis, III. vi. 6

[john6809]

Paidion wrote, Jesus concluded his parable of the three slaves with these words:

I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished! (verses 49 and 50)

Jesus wished with all His heart that the fire of purification were already started — so deep was His love for people. He wanted to see that baptism of fire started! He even had great distress while waiting for it to be accomplished!

I freely admit that non-traditional views of hell are new to me and as such, I have not made up my mind as to what I believe. If I could, I would like to ask a few questions that would help me to understand the various views, as well as offer my 2 cents where I do have an opinion.

I have always understood these words of Jesus as a reference to His own suffering. Jesus anticipates His suffering and this is the event which is causing Him great distress. The fire cast on the earth that Jesus wished were already kindled, seems to be missing one ingredient before it can come, namely, His suffering on the cross.

Other passages that would seem to support my view are as follows:

Matthew 20:17-23
17 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them,
18 "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death,
19 and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again."
20 Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him.
21 And He said to her, "What do you wish?" She said to Him, "Grant that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on the left, in Your kingdom."
22 But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able."
23 So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."

Here we see Jesus again predicting His own suffering when James and John (or their mother, or James and John, through their mother – depending on which narrative you read) ask that they may sit at the right and the left hand of Jesus in His kingdom. He asks if they are able to, “…drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am to be baptized with?” In light of the fact that He was telling them about His own impending suffering, it seems that the language of baptism and the cup are understood to be synonymous with His suffering (at least to Jesus).

Indeed, they did share in His sufferings. Apparently James became the first apostle to be martyred. John, according to tradition, died of natural causes, but suffered much in the intervening years and was eventually exiled to the island of Patmos.

Further, in Matthew 26:36-46 we find:

36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there."
37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.
38 Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me."
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."
40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "What! Could you not watch with Me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done."
43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.
44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
45 Then He came to His disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.
46 Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand."

Here we see the same element of Jesus’ distress, combined with the same language of the cup that He was soon to drink. No need to belabour the point, as you can see for yourself the two references to the cup.

Lastly, I am not convinced of your decision to connect Luke 12:49-50 to the preceding parable of the three slaves. To me, it stands as it’s own section when connected to verses 51-53. The fire that is cast down seems to speak of the division that is brought when His work on the cross is done. Indeed, the word “fire” from verse 49 is described as, “…since fire disorganizes and sunders things joined together and compact, it is used to symbolize dissension…” in The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon. This understanding would lead to me to associate Luke 12:49-50 with verses 51-53. The disagreement within Jewish families after the death and resurrection of Jesus, (many were saved and added to the church and others stayed the course with Judaism), must have led to considerable dissension. In my understanding, this is what this passage means.

Thus it would read as follows without direct reference to the parable of the three slaves:

49 "I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.
52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three.
53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

All in all, I don’t suppose it will have great bearing on how you view hell and God’s use of hell in the afterlife, but maybe this shows that the two verses you quoted can’t necessarily be used as a proof text for your views. Again, I submit this respectfully, as you have obviously spent much more time and effort studying this matter than I have.
Grace and peace.