Hell and Hearts

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mattrose
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Hell and Hearts

Post by mattrose » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:46 pm

*** I thought I'd post a tiny section from my thesis that I wrote today. It is in regards to our instincts and heart level reaction to the doctrine of hell.

Hell and Hearts

If we could select which of the three views of hell was reality, what would we choose? Seemingly, Christians (enemy lovers at heart) would choose the eventual restoration position. Wouldn’t we be overjoyed to know that every single human being and all of creation would ultimately be restored to right relationship with God through Jesus Christ? If any professing Christian would admit to preferring that everlasting misery turn out to be true, one would have to wonder whether the love of God truly resides in their heart.

What, however, if the eventual restoration of every individual is too good to be true? Maybe some people will continually refuse to repent and be restored. In such a case, would we rather they faced everlasting misery or eventual extinction? It seems, given these two options, that extinction would be preferable to everlasting misery, though some question this conclusion. Indeed, Augustine objects, “Mere existence is desirable… those who are wretched are for this very reason unwilling to die… they would certainly be overjoyed to choose perpetual misery in preference to complete annihilation.” This seems far from certain to many today. Eventual restoration is preferable to eventual extinction. Eventual extinction is preferable to everlasting misery.

Should we make something of our objection to everlasting misery? Is it significant that in our hearts we tend to detest the idea of hell in general, but especially its most severe definition? Below is a series of quotes collected from the sources that have been part of our research:
“It seems harder to believe that the bodies of the damned are to remain in endless torment.” (Augustine)

“No evangelical, I think, need hesitate to admit that in his heart of hearts he would like universalism to be true. Who can take pleasure in the thought of people being eternally lost? If you want to see folks damned, there is something wrong with you.” (Packer)

“The thought of hell… can carry no inherent attraction to the balanced and coherent human mind.” (Ferguson)

“I do not want to believe in it” (Alcorn)
“Most Christians have natural problems with the concept of eternal punishment.” (Walvoord)

“Truly pious people naturally wish that all people would be saved” (Calvin)

"Of all the doctrines of Christianity, hell is probably the most difficult to defend, the most burdensome to believe and the first to be abandoned.” (Kreeft)

“If the choice is between hell as everlasting torture and universal salvation, who could resist the latter? Sensitive persons would be practically forced to accept it, since they cannot accept that God would subject anyone, even most corrupt sinners, to unending torture in both body and soul.” (Pinnock)

“Let me say at the outset that I consider the concept of hell as endless torment in body and mind an outrageous doctrine, a theological and moral enormity, a bad doctrine of the tradition which needs to be changed. How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any moral standards, and by the gospel itself.” (Pinnock)

“Emotionally, I find the concept intolerable.” (Stott)

“The dogma that God wants everlasting punishment for the vast majority of humanity had always bothered me.” (Bonda)

“The conventional doctrine of hell has too often engendered a view of a deity who suffers from borderline personality disorder or some worse sociopathic diagnosis.” (McLaren)

“There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power.” (Lewis)

“We are told that it is a detestable doctrine—and indeed, I too detest it from the bottom of my heart.” (Lewis)

“Why then have so many theologians abandoned the traditional doctrine of hell? The answer to this is straightforward: the doctrine is widely regarded to be morally indefensible.” (Walls)
Though these quotes come from people holding a variety of perspectives, all of the above quotes are directed at the everlasting misery view of hell. Supporters of this view routinely express such sentiment, but then dismiss it as irrelevant, insisting that we must never build doctrines from our instincts and/or emotions. Others give this type of evidence a small bit of weight. Walls states, “what people actually believe about hell is relevant initial evidence, but [it is] no more than that.” For our purposes, the sentiments expressed in these quotations are certainly not our primary source for determining the truth about hell (that would be Scripture), but neither should they be simply dismissed. In fact, they should be taken more seriously than they typically have been. After all, all of the above quotes come from professing Christians. Especially Wesleyans, who emphasize heart level transformation, should consider whether our sentiment against everlasting misery is actually evidence against the view. Does our judgment, as spiritual people, represent the mind of Christ?

Certainly such evidence should not be taken too far. After all, non-Christians seem to share this sentiment against everlasting misery. Then again, if the feeling is mutual between Christians and non-Christians alike, perhaps that only strengthens the evidence. It could be argued that we also have an instinctual desire to see sin punished, as if this is support for the everlasting misery view. Such is granted, but all three of the views we have been discussing include some form of punishment. Perhaps objections such as these would make sense if we were discussing instant extinction or instant restoration, but we are not.

jesusrules777
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Re: Hell and Hearts

Post by jesusrules777 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:47 pm

What if Hell is a place that a loving God created for those people who want nothing to do with God or His authority? God doesn't force people to spend eternity with Him and therefore they need a place reserved just for those who hate God and want to live by their own agendas rather than under the authority of their Creator.

It is difficult to fathom but there are many humans who actually reject God and have no desire to spend eternity with Him and the people who love Him. God allows this choice and has prepared an eternal place for these people. It breaks His heart, but He allows them to reject Him both here and hereafter.

Can you imagine living eternally with other people and without God and His authority? Colliding egos, agendas, self centeredness, arrogance and most of all NO love. Wow, that in and of itself sounds horrifying!

Pride is what caused satan to fall and it is spiritual cancer for every human. When we blind ourselves to the wickedness dwelling within each of our hearts, we begin the slippery slope torwards Hell. (life void of God and His authority) God IS love and those who choose an eternity without God are also saying they want to spend eternity without love.

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steve
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Re: Hell and Hearts

Post by steve » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:52 pm

Matt,

Our minds seem to run in tandem. The first chapter of my book is called, "Hell Has Few Friends," and begins with a laundry list of quotes just like these ones (even a few of the same ones!). My argument is: If even the most godly saints (and many who are prepared, if necessary, to defend the traditional doctrine) find the traditional view morally repugnant (check out Francis Chan's reaction to his grandmother's death, in Erasing Hell, p.13f), then how can we assume that God does not likewise find it repugnant? And if even God finds it repugnant, as some of its own defenders allege (e.g., Spurgeon and J.P. Moreland), then why would we imagine He would have created a reality that would cause Himself eternal disgust?

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TK
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Re: Hell and Hearts

Post by TK » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:57 pm

I am reminded of Christopher's old post "Hope as a Legitimate Reason to Believe in UR." I still read that every so often.

I am afraid that I know quite a few Christians who seem to take special glee in the idea of eternal torment, especially for the likes of Hitler and Jerry Sandusky.

TK

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Homer
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Re: Hell and Hearts

Post by Homer » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:06 pm

Don't forget to add to the list the first universalist type who said "You shall not surely die".

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mattrose
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Re: Hell and Hearts

Post by mattrose » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:24 pm

Homer,

It seems to me your clever remark is mis-directed

If satan is to be seen as the first 'universalist,' then his breed of universalism is of the secular variety (God does not feel the need to address the sin issue and will simply accept everyone into heaven no questions asked).

I don't think anyone on this site, nor any evangelical universalist, has anything close to this sort of view. Evangelical universalism insists in 2 things that non-evangelical and/or secular universalists do not. 1) They insist on the reality of hell and 2) They insist on salvation through Christ alone. Thus, evangelical universalists envision the wicked going to hell, but hell being a place of correction so as to produce repentance and forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

Of course, satan's comments in Eden do not really apply to this thread. The quotes listed are from people who insist that there will be judgment in hell, but may or may not have questions about the nature of that judgment. Satan would have us to believe there will be no judgment at all.

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Homer
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Re: Hell and Hearts

Post by Homer » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:28 pm

Matt,

My apology - I stand corrected. I was thinking the same thing myself and was going to delete my post just now but too late!

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mattrose
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Re: Hell and Hearts

Post by mattrose » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:27 pm

Sorry Homer :) I probably check this site too often

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Jepne
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Re: Hell and Hearts

Post by Jepne » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:22 pm

Concerning "Christopher's old post "Hope as a Legitimate Reason to Believe in UR.""

Do you have a link for it? I remember this as an exceptional piece, but thought that it was by Mort Coyle.

I could not find it anywhere although I looked extensively on this site, and at all of Christopher's posts.

Thank you!


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