Hell and Hearts

[Paidion]

No evangelical, I think, need hesitate to admit that in his heart of hearts he would like universalism to be true. Who can take pleasure in the thought of people being eternally lost? If you want to see folks damned, there is something wrong with you.” (Packer)

If Packer is right, then there must be something wrong with Tertullian, Thomas Aquinas, Jonathan Edwards, Thomas Boston, Isaac Watts, St. Anthony Mary Claret, and even the Catholic Truth Society. The following quotes have been recorded in "Tentmaker":

Tertullian

“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors. . .in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows. . .What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.” [De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX]

Thomas Aquinas

In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned. . .So that they may be urged the more to praise God. . .The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens. . .to the damned. [Summa Theologica, Third Part, Supplement, Question XCIV, "Of the Relations of the Saints Towards the Damned," First Article, "Whether the Blessed in Heaven Will See the Sufferings of the Damned. . ."]

“The same fire” (which he decides to be material) “ torments the damned in hell and the just in purgatory…The least pain in purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life.” Summa Theo. Suppl. Qu. 100, acts. 2, n. 3.

Jonathan Edwards

“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

["The Eternity of Hell Torments" (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]

Thomas Boston, Scottish preacher, 1732

"God shall not pity them but laugh at their calamity. The righteous company in heaven shall rejoice in the execution of God's judgment, and shall sing while the smoke riseth up for ever."

Isaac Watts

During America 's "Great Awakening" the popular hymn writer, Isaac Watts (1674-1748), even set Christians' feet to tapping with this crisp little verse:

What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,

When they in glory dwell,

To see the sinner as he rolls,

In quenchless flames of hell.

St. Anthony Mary Claret

“Once [a soul] is condemned by God, then God's friends agree in God's judgment and condemnation. For all eternity they will not have a kind thought for this wretch. Rather they will be satisfied to see him in the flames as a victim of God's justice. ("The just shall rejoice when he shall see the revenge . . ." Psalm 57:11) They will abhor him. A mother will look from paradise upon her own condemned son without being moved, as though she had never known him.”-- "The Pains of Hell," Ignatian Spiritual Exercises, consisting of thirty-five meditations from The Spiritual Exercises of Saint Ignatius as explained by St. Anthony Mary Claret. St. Claret's "explanations" were written in Spanish in the late 1800's.

Catholic Truth Society

What will it be like for a mother in heaven who sees her son burning in hell? She will glorify the justice of God. - Pamphlet from the late 1960s, part of a catechismal teaching [cited in an essay by the English poet, Stevie Smith, "Some Impediments to Christian Commitment"]

[Homer]

If Packer is right, then there must be something wrong with Tertullian, Thomas Aquinas, Jonathan Edwards, Thomas Boston, Isaac Watts, St. Anthony Mary Claret, and even the Catholic Truth Society.

What are we to make of those unforgiving martyrs? Must be something wrong with them too:

Revelation 6:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)

9. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

They will probably wind up in the same place as Tertullian, Aquinas, Edwards, et al....er, wait, everyone winds up in the same place, right?

[mattrose]

My quotes vs. Paidion's quotes certainly do show the evolution of the defense of the everlasting misery view.

They USED to say the righteous would rejoice at the fate of the wicked
But NOW they say the righteous will either have such memories erased or at most be content about it

They USED to say that the wicked would be repentant in hell, but be shown no mercy from God
But NOW they say that the wicked will be unrepentant and bitter, giving God no chance to show mercy

These are two generalizations, but I think quite accurate

[Singalphile]

Those quotes are out there, I'd say.

They USED to say the righteous would rejoice at the fate of the wicked
But NOW they say the righteous will either have such memories erased or at most be content about it

They USED to say that the wicked would be repentant in hell, but be shown no mercy from God
But NOW they say that the wicked will be unrepentant and bitter, giving God no chance to show mercy

~mattrose

And as far as I know, the Bible doesn't say any of those things (about God's final judgement of the lost).

[Jepne]

Thank you for these, Matt. Very interesting to have the view of how it is all changing.

Also, thank you for the link to the necessity for hope.
(I need to change my email connection -that is why I missed the notification.)

[Paidion]

If Packer is right, then there must be something wrong with Tertullian, Thomas Aquinas, Jonathan Edwards, Thomas Boston, Isaac Watts, St. Anthony Mary Claret, and even the Catholic Truth Society.

What are we to make of those unforgiving martyrs? Must be something wrong with them too:

Revelation 6:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)

9. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Homer, how can you put these martyrs in the same class as those who delight to see sinners tormented in hell? To long for vindication and justice (fairness) and judgment of one's persecuters, belongs in a quite different category from longing for revenge and exulting in seeing one's enemies tortured.

Perhaps you were led astray by the translation of εκδικεις as "avenge" which in our day is a synonym for "revenge".

They will probably wind up in the same place as Tertullian, Aquinas, Edwards, et al....er, wait, everyone winds up in the same place, right?

Right. But those who delight in seeing people suffer will have to repent—have a change of heart and mind—before they will wind up in that place. Their sadistic, vengeful hearts will have to undergo a revolutionary change — or they may even require a complete heart transplant.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

Revelation 6:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)

9. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Homer, how can you put these martyrs in the same class as those who delight to see sinners tormented in hell? To long for vindication and justice (fairness) and judgment of one's persecuters, belongs in a quite different category from longing for revenge and exulting in seeing one's enemies tortured.

Perhaps you were led astray by the translation of εκδικεις as "avenge" which in our day is a synonym for "revenge".

Well, you have me puzzled. If ekdikeo in Revelation 6:10 does not mean "avenge", what does it mean here, and does the verbal form mean something different than the noun:


Romans 12:19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19. Never take your own revenge (ekdikeo, verb), beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance (ekdikesis, noun) is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

[Paidion]

Well, you have me puzzled. If ekdikeo in Revelation 6:10 does not mean "avenge", what does it mean here, and does the verbal form mean something different than the noun:

Romans 12:19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19. Never take your own revenge (ekdikeo, verb), beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance (ekdikesis, noun) is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

No, I don't think there is any reason to think the verbal form differs in meaning from the nounal form. According to lexicons, the verbal form has been derived from the nounal form, and the nounal form is derived from the noun "δικη" whose primary meanings are:

1. A custom
2. A right
3. a legal defence.

Lexicons also give the meaning of the verb "εκδικεω" as "protect" or "defend". We can see that this fits the whole context.

Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to what is good in the presence of all people. If you can, live peacably with all people. In no way, defend yourselves, Beloved, but give place to wrath [of your adversaries], for it is written, "For defence is mine [to carry out]; I will defend you says [The] Lord. I will repay [Repay you for the way your adversary has used you]. And if your adversary is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him drink. For if you do these things, you will heap coals of fire upon his head."

Here is my summary of the passage:
You should not seek revenge, but do what is good to your adversaries. Live peaceably with everyone, and don't try to defend yourself, but let your adversary take out his rage upon you. Trust in the Lord to defend you, and make it up to you. Provide for your adversary's needs, and when he sees that you love him regardless of his bad treatment of you, his conscience will bother him.

At this point you may wish to remind me that the writer to the Hebrews quotes the same passage, and in that context it cannot mean "Defence is mine, says the Lord". That is true. The writer to the Hebrews is using the word in the sense of God's judgment. He is saying that if we go on sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, God will judge us.

I think that in no case do the New Testament writers depict God as a God of vengeance. If that were the case, it would mean that God exhibits the very characteristic which Jesus and Paul asked people not to have. Jesus asks His listeners to do good to all people so that they might be sons of their Heavenly Father (be LIKE Him). For He sends his sunshine and rain on BOTH the righteous and the unrighteous (Matthew 5:45), and He is kind to ungrateful people and to evil people. (Luke 6:35) Jesus revealed to His listeners the true character of God.

[Jim]

Some of you might find this interesting...

THE RIVER OF FIRE, by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS

http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm



XIV

One could insist, however, that the Sacred Scriptures and the Fathers always speak of God as the Great Judge who will reward those who were obedient to Him and will punish those who were disobedient, in the day of the Great Judgment (II Tim. 4:6-8). How are we to understand this judgment if we are to understand the divine words not in a human but in a divine manner'? What is God's judgment?

God is Truth and Light. God's judgment is nothing else than our coming into contact with truth and light. In the day of the Great Judgment all men will appear naked before this penetrating light of truth. The "books" will be opened. What are these "books"? They are our hearts. Our hearts will be opened by the penetrating light of God, and what is in these hearts will be revealed. If in those hearts there is love for God, those hearts will rejoice seeing God's light. If, on the contrary, there is hatred for God in those hearts, these men will suffer by receiving on their opened hearts this penetrating light of truth which they detested all their life.

So that which will differentiate between one man and another will not be a decision of God, a reward or a punishment from Him, but that which was in each one's heart; what was there during all our life will be revealed in the Day of Judgment. If there is a reward and a punishment in this revelation — and there really is — it does not come from God but from the love or hate which reigns in our heart. Love has bliss in it, hatred has despair, bitterness, grief, affliction, wickedness, agitation, confusion, darkness, and all the other interior conditions which compose hell (I Cor. 4:6).

The Light of Truth, God's Energy, God's grace which will fall on men unhindered by corrupt conditions in the Day of Judgment, will be the same to all men. There will be no distinction whatever. All the difference lies in those who receive, not in Him Who gives. The sun shines on healthy and diseased eyes alike, without any distinction. Healthy eyes enjoy light and because of it see clearly the beauty which surrounds them. Diseased eyes feel pain, they hurt, suffer, and want to hide from this same light which brings such great happiness to those who have healthy eyes.

But alas, there is no longer any possibility of escaping God's light. During this life there was. In the New Creation of the Resurrection, God will be everywhere and in everything. His light and love will embrace all. There will be no place hidden from God, as was the case during our corrupt life in the kingdom of the prince of this world. 41 The devil's kingdom will be despoiled by the Common Resurrection and God will take possession again of His creation. 42 Love will enrobe everything with its sacred Fire which will flow like a river from the throne of God and will irrigate paradise. But this same river of Love — for those who have hate in their hearts — will suffocate and burn.

"For our God is a consuming fire", (Heb. 12:29). The very fire which purifies gold, also consumes wood. Precious metals shine in it like the sun, rubbish burns with black smoke. All are in the same fire of Love. Some shine and others become black and dark. In the same furnace steel shines like the sun, whereas clay turns dark and is hardened like stone. The difference is in man, not in God.

The difference is conditioned by the free choice of man, which God respects absolutely. God's judgment is the revelation of the reality which is in man.

[Paidion]

Thanks, Jim. Quite fascinating. It reminds me of C.S. Lewis in "The Last Battle" from the Narnian Chronicles. The dwarves, who did not believe in Aslan, nevertheless ended up in Aslan's country like everyone else.
But they still believed they were in the dark, dirty stable. When exquisite food and wine were offered to them, they thought they were being mocked by being given rotting turnips, and urine from the trough behind the animals.

Also in Lewis's "Journey from Hell to Heaven", those who took the bus trip to heaven, didn't enjoy what they experienced there, and chose to go back to "The Grey City", including the modernistic preacher who "had a little Bible study group" down there. (I'm going by memory; I probably don't have the details totally correct).