1957 murderer convicted

[Paidion]

God's standard of justice has not changed

So what is "justice" in this context? Revenge? Vengeance? Hate?

What was once considered God's "standard of justice" was never taught or practised by the Lord Jesus. "God's standard for justice" was supposedly to stone every adulteress to death. If Jesus had held to this supposed "standard of justice", how would He have responded to the question of the scribes and Pharisees, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”

If Jesus had held to this standard, He would have said, "The law is clear! She must be stoned!" and probably He would have picked up the first stone and threw it at her. After all He was without sin. But instead He shamed the scribes and Pharisees by saying, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." They all left, one by one. He told the woman, "I don't condemn you. Go and sin no more."

I suppose you will tell me that murder is much worse than adultery. I agree. But God's supposed "standard of justice" was the same — death. But let's consider murder then. Do you know of a single instance in which Jesus recommended that one who has killed be put to death?

Have you ever noticed that when Jesus and His disciples quoted passages from the Hebrew scriptures they excluded the portions that urged violence against evil doers?

It's not that I blame you for the way you feel toward those who have killed. When I was a child, as well as when I was a teenager, I wanted people who had harmed others to get the same thing done to themselves. And if it ever happened, I was glad. But later in life as I better understood the teachings of Jesus to love and pray for one's enemies, I realized it is far more wonderful if the person repents, has a change of heart and mind, and turns from his evil, and becomes a regenerated person.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9). If our God were a God of vengeance, He would be GLAD that some people, at least murderers, should perish.

For centuries the assumption of punitive justice has saturated nearly every segment of our Western society—shaping how we approached child rearing, education, mental health, and of course our criminal justice system. It was common in the past for instance to think it was good to beat children at home and at school, or to beat one’s servants and workers.

Flood, Derek (2012-08-06). Healing the Gospel: A Radical Vision for Grace, Justice, and the Cross (Kindle Locations 192-194). Cascade Books, an Imprint of Wipf and Stock Publishers. Kindle Edition.

The New Testament, in contrast [to punitive justice], is actually a critique of punitive justice. It presents it as a problem to be solved, not as the means to the solution. The problem of wrath (that is, punitive justice) is overcome through the cross, which is an act of restoration—restoring humanity to a right relationship with God. In other words, restorative justice is how God in Christ acts to heal the problem of punitive justice. Love is not in conflict with justice, love is how justice comes about because the New Testament understanding of justice is ultimately not about punishment, but about making things right again. After his book length study of biblical justice, Chris Marshall concludes, “The justice of God is not primarily or normatively a retributive justice or a distributive justice but a restorative or reconstructive justice, a saving action by God that recreates shalom and makes things right.” This is not simply one theme found in Scripture, it is the core narrative of the gospel—the master story of God in Christ reconciling the world to himself (2 Cor 5:19). It is the story of restoration, redemption—at-one-ment. This meta-narrative of redemption is rooted, as Marshall says, in the idea of restorative justice. That is, justice understood in terms of God in Christ restoring and making things right again. Restorative justice comes through mercy because it has to do with acting to make things right.

Flood, Derek (2012-08-06). Healing the Gospel: A Radical Vision for Grace, Justice, and the Cross (Kindle Locations 227-241). Cascade Books, an Imprint of Wipf and Stock Publishers. Kindle Edition.

[steve7150]

The New Testament, in contrast [to punitive justice], is actually a critique of punitive justice. It presents it as a problem to be solved, not as the means to the solution. The problem of wrath (that is, punitive justice) is overcome through the cross, which is an act of restoration—restoring humanity to a right relationship with God. In other words, restorative justice is how God in Christ acts to heal the problem of punitive justice. Love is not in conflict with justice, love is how justice comes about because the New Testament understanding of justice is ultimately not about punishment,








Who caused the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and why was it destroyed? Perhaps one can argue it's the final punishment or curse resulting from the Old Covenant?

[brody196]

God's standard of justice has not changed

So what is "justice" in this context? Revenge? Vengeance? Hate?

I view it as the same thing that the martyrs cried out for in Rev 6. It is not an ungodly thing to want justice. When this man took it upon himself to kill a child, he forfeited his right to life.

What was once considered God's "standard of justice" was never taught or practised by the Lord Jesus. "God's standard for justice" was supposedly to stone every adulteress to death. If Jesus had held to this supposed "standard of justice", how would He have responded to the question of the scribes and Pharisees, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”

If Jesus had held to this standard, He would have said, "The law is clear! She must be stoned!" and probably He would have picked up the first stone and threw it at her. After all He was without sin. But instead He shamed the scribes and Pharisees by saying, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." They all left, one by one. He told the woman, "I don't condemn you. Go and sin no more."

Sorry, but that isn't a parallel to this situation. Jesus knew the hearts of those who wanted the lady killed, namely that they were as guilty as she was. If a child murderer demanded that another child murderer be put to death, than I am sure Jesus would call him on his hypocrisy. Apples and oranges Bro...

I suppose you will tell me that murder is much worse than adultery. I agree. But God's supposed "standard of justice" was the same — death. But let's consider murder then. Do you know of a single instance in which Jesus recommended that one who has killed be put to death?

Yes. Matthew 23:34-35 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar."

Have you ever noticed that when Jesus and His disciples quoted passages from the Hebrew scriptures they excluded the portions that urged violence against evil doers?

I don't think that Christians should be going around punishing evil doers, but the state certainly has the right to do so. God gave them that right. Romans 13: Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

It's not that I blame you for the way you feel toward those who have killed. When I was a child, as well as when I was a teenager, I wanted people who had harmed others to get the same thing done to themselves. And if it ever happened, I was glad. But later in life as I better understood the teachings of Jesus to love and pray for one's enemies, I realized it is far more wonderful if the person repents, has a change of heart and mind, and turns from his evil, and becomes a regenerated person.

Perhaps some of your sensitivities in this area are misplaced? It would be great if every murderer of children would repent and believe the gospel, but that does not change the fact that a child was killed. Jesus was very sensitive to children. In fact, he recommended a "millstone be tied around the necks" of those who would stumble a little child. How much more those who would murder a child?

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9). If our God were a God of vengeance, He would be GLAD that some people, at least murderers, should perish.

God is going to allow many to perish! I realize that you hold to a teaching that cannot allow for this, but scripture is very plain on what God is going to do to those who reject the gospel. 2 Thess 1: 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

70 A.D. is also a good example of this.

"Derek Flood"]For centuries the assumption of punitive justice has saturated nearly every segment of our Western society—shaping how we approached child rearing, education, mental health, and of course our criminal justice system. It was common in the past for instance to think it was good to beat children at home and at school, or to beat one’s servants and workers.

Flood, Derek (2012-08-06). Healing the Gospel: A Radical Vision for Grace, Justice, and the Cross (Kindle Locations 192-194). Cascade Books, an Imprint of Wipf and Stock Publishers. Kindle Edition.

The New Testament, in contrast [to punitive justice], is actually a critique of punitive justice. It presents it as a problem to be solved, not as the means to the solution. The problem of wrath (that is, punitive justice) is overcome through the cross, which is an act of restoration—restoring humanity to a right relationship with God. In other words, restorative justice is how God in Christ acts to heal the problem of punitive justice. Love is not in conflict with justice, love is how justice comes about because the New Testament understanding of justice is ultimately not about punishment, but about making things right again. After his book length study of biblical justice, Chris Marshall concludes, “The justice of God is not primarily or normatively a retributive justice or a distributive justice but a restorative or reconstructive justice, a saving action by God that recreates shalom and makes things right.” This is not simply one theme found in Scripture, it is the core narrative of the gospel—the master story of God in Christ reconciling the world to himself (2 Cor 5:19). It is the story of restoration, redemption—at-one-ment. This meta-narrative of redemption is rooted, as Marshall says, in the idea of restorative justice. That is, justice understood in terms of God in Christ restoring and making things right again. Restorative justice comes through mercy because it has to do with acting to make things right.

Flood, Derek (2012-08-06). Healing the Gospel: A Radical Vision for Grace, Justice, and the Cross (Kindle Locations 227-241). Cascade Books, an Imprint of Wipf and Stock Publishers. Kindle Edition.
[/quote]

With all due respect to Derek Flood, he has conveniently passed over scores of passages that deal with the justice of God....

[Paidion]

Who caused the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and why was it destroyed?

The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66.

From Wikipedia

So that's the "who caused the destruction of Jerusalem." As to why it was destroyed. The Jews didn't knuckle under the Romans, and the Romans wanted complete authority over the then-known world.

Perhaps one can argue it's the final punishment or curse resulting from the Old Covenant?

Would you please reword that. I am uncertain of your meaning.

[Jepne]

I know that people who cause others to suffer must go through a process in which they experience in their hearts the grief they caused. I have had to.

Understanding other people's grief is a form of prayer - an intercession.

There are victim programs where parents of murdered children, for instance, go to prisons and give talks on what it is like to have to deal with the results of the prisoners' crimes - one woman whose son had been murdered was part of such a program. She was prepared to go give a rant and let those creeps know just what they had done - but when she got there, she began to break and she saw the prisoners as victims themselves who had been broken and beaten. She began, in time, a relationship with the one who had murdered her son. It was healing for her as well as the young man. In her work in the prisons, she gained many 'sons'.

The purpose of these programs is not to let murderers go 'scot free' to murder again. No. Many come to a place of repentance that is real, and the angels sing.

[brody196]

I know that people who cause others to suffer must go through a process in which they experience in their hearts the grief they caused. I have had to.

Understanding other people's grief is a form of prayer - an intercession.

There are victim programs where parents of murdered children, for instance, go to prisons and give talks on what it is like to have to deal with the results of the prisoners' crimes - one woman whose son had been murdered was part of such a program. She was prepared to go give a rant and let those creeps know just what they had done - but when she got there, she began to break and she saw the prisoners as victims themselves who had been broken and beaten. She began, in time, a relationship with the one who had murdered her son. It was healing for her as well as the young man. In her work in the prisons, she gained many 'sons'.

The purpose of these programs is not to let murderers go 'scot free' to murder again. No. Many come to a place of repentance that is real, and the angels sing.

While I do appreciate prison ministries and find myself moved by stories of real repentance, I still feel that anyone who murders a child has forfeited their right to live. Can God forgive them? Of course, no Christian would deny that.

You also have to take into account the fact that we do not live in a perfect world. Many people will do whatever it takes to get out of the responsibility of their actions. If that means faking a "change", then so be it. As long as they don't have to own up to anything. I have seen this sorta thing first hand in my community. Some here in my town will go from church to church seeking a hand out and "act the part" long enough to get someone to feel bad for them, then when the money comes, they take it and run. It's sad, but manipulation is a serious character flaw in the lives of many.

[Jepne]

“. . . anyone who murders a child has forfeited their right to live. Can God forgive them? Of course, no Christian would deny that.”

Think on the serious sins for which you have been forgiven – do you still have to carry a punishment forever? OR – has the necessary repentance fashioned a sobriety in you that has made you more of a priest before God?

If someone is truly repentant and God has forgiven him, who are you to put them to death?? I was in a 'hospital church' and worshipped alongside a former hit man who devoted his life to God - should I have killed him instead of loving him and his family?

I had in my home a dear confused miserable young woman who bore babies for Satanic sacrifice on Halloween. Should I have poisoned her food, or offered her to the State for ritual murder, where she would have the sacramental last visit from the ‘man of God’, the last meal, a last phone call to her weeping mother, the walk down the hall with the guards, the last words after they strapped her to the gurney, the pronouncement by the doctor that she is dead, the statement by the warden to the waiting press, the bloodthirsty crowds cheering outside alongside the silent, fasting, grieving, friends and family – or should I have loved her and helped her heart to heal, helped her learn to live a life that is pleasing to God and beneficial for everyone her life touched??

“You also have to take into account the fact that we do not live in a perfect world.”

Of course, but we are called to do what is right. The lack of discernment in the church is no excuse to refuse to minister what the Lord has commanded us: if someone asks for your coat, give him your cloak also. Those who receive goods unjustly will suffer much more than those who give the goods. I have been there. The righteous have access to the cattle on a thousand hills which are His. He causes his rain to fall on the just and the unjust. We are called on to bless our enemies and do good to them.

“Some here in my town will go from church to church seeking a hand out . . . .when the money comes, they take it and run.”

Leaders of churches need to get together and compare notes about these folks. In my last hometown they did. In our church, we took the time to come alongside these folks and go to their homes and try to see what they really needed. They either got REAL help, or they didn’t come back. We took them at their word.

Yes, some will fool us into believing they have changed because our discernment is poor, because we have not been the kingdom of priests we are called to be, too focussed on entertainments and things of the world. When that is the case, we need to repent and do the right thing – not offer a blanket penalty because we are too lazy to change our ways.

[brody196]

“. . . anyone who murders a child has forfeited their right to live. Can God forgive them? Of course, no Christian would deny that.”

Think on the serious sins for which you have been forgiven – do you still have to carry a punishment forever? OR – has the necessary repentance fashioned a sobriety in you that has made you more of a priest before God?

If someone is truly repentant and God has forgiven him, who are you to put them to death?? I was in a 'hospital church' and worshipped alongside a former hit man who devoted his life to God - should I have killed him instead of loving him and his family?

I had in my home a dear confused miserable young woman who bore babies for Satanic sacrifice on Halloween. Should I have poisoned her food, or offered her to the State for ritual murder, where she would have the sacramental last visit from the ‘man of God’, the last meal, a last phone call to her weeping mother, the walk down the hall with the guards, the last words after they strapped her to the gurney, the pronouncement by the doctor that she is dead, the statement by the warden to the waiting press, the bloodthirsty crowds cheering outside alongside the silent, fasting, grieving, friends and family – or should I have loved her and helped her heart to heal, helped her learn to live a life that is pleasing to God and beneficial for everyone her life touched??

“You also have to take into account the fact that we do not live in a perfect world.”

Of course, but we are called to do what is right. The lack of discernment in the church is no excuse to refuse to minister what the Lord has commanded us: if someone asks for your coat, give him your cloak also. Those who receive goods unjustly will suffer much more than those who give the goods. I have been there. The righteous have access to the cattle on a thousand hills which are His. He causes his rain to fall on the just and the unjust. We are called on to bless our enemies and do good to them.

“Some here in my town will go from church to church seeking a hand out . . . .when the money comes, they take it and run.”

Leaders of churches need to get together and compare notes about these folks. In my last hometown they did. In our church, we took the time to come alongside these folks and go to their homes and try to see what they really needed. They either got REAL help, or they didn’t come back. We took them at their word.

Yes, some will fool us into believing they have changed because our discernment is poor, because we have not been the kingdom of priests we are called to be, too focussed on entertainments and things of the world. When that is the case, we need to repent and do the right thing – not offer a blanket penalty because we are too lazy to change our ways.

So what do you recommend the punishment for a child murderer to be?

[steve7150]

Steve7150 wrote:Who caused the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD and why was it destroyed?



The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66.

From Wikipedia

So that's the "who caused the destruction of Jerusalem." As to why it was destroyed. The Jews didn't knuckle under the Romans, and the Romans wanted complete authority over the then-known world.

Perhaps one can argue it's the final punishment or curse resulting from the Old Covenant?


Would you please reword that. I am uncertain of your meaning.







I'm alluding to the Parable of the Wedding Feast in Matt 22 , which most scholars interpret to be a prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem 70AD.

22.7 "But when the king heard about it, he was furious and he sent out his armies , destroyed those murderers and burned their city."

How would you interpret this parable Paidion?

[Jepne]

Hi Brody - What should be done, I would not think of as punishment, but correction that would hopefully lead to repentance. I would think the perpetrator needs to be removed from the lifestyle that led to his wrongdoing. In some society, a person was locked in solitary with a Bible and a hymn book. At least, he should be put in an atmosphere in which he would have nothing to do but think and reflect, to help him see what he did. Of course, he would be busy thinking about his court case, and possibly the family of the victim would be giving him something to think about. Hopefully, they would be allowed to confront him, but too often the court forbids contact unless they have a restorative justice program, which some states are allowing now. They are seeing that more and more prisons do not help the problem.

Unforgiveness, and yelling ‘shame, shame’ would only keep him locked into the place he was in when he killed, and he would continue to bring grief to society even though in prison. That is the hard part for us on the outside. What they did makes us so angry (!!) and we have to fight that like the plague – not because the killer is a nice guy – but because of our calling as priests before God so we can fulfill the commandment of the Lord to pray for our enemies.

Some killers welcome death because they think they won’t suffer with their thoughts after they are dead. I know when I have finally seen pretty awful things that I have done, I have wanted to be dead, but God wants us to stick it out, face up to it, and overcome either the things that were done to us that led to our crimes, or habits and thoughts we have fostered that deceived us into thinking it was allright to harm someone else.

The needs of the victims and the offenders, as well as the involved community, are important – they are the ones offended, not the State. As a rule, satisfying legal principles and punishing the offender don’t really help anyone. I keep hearing from people who should know, that “closure” is a myth.

I hope this helps.