Potential Forgiveness in the Afterlife

[steve7150]

This is problematic (though perhaps not fatally so) in that it suggests the sinner can cover his own debt, and thus not require divine mercy. This suggests an economy that we evangelicals have been conditioned to find repulsive. How then would these people have benefited from what Christ did? On the other hand, I am not aware of any scripture that specifically precludes this.









The sinner can't save himself but punishment may be part of the reap what you sow principal which is from God, and then at some point God through his mercy may offer salvation as a gift , not because the sinner paid for it.
Or punishment may be part of a restoration process ending in possible forgiveness.

[GordonWayneWatts]

Good question. I revived your old 2011 infant soteriology thread and answered this: The millennium is a place of both people in *physical* bodies as well as Free Will, as I scripturally show. I did write a book on infant soteriology, but I hesitate to mention it, since I am not sure if this would be an improper promotion of something to make a buck. I do, however, address the issue in detail in your other thread, and do not charge anything or mention where to find my book.

It's appointed for many ONCE to die, and thereafter the judgment (Heb 9:27), but who's to say that God's "judgment" for the dead infant is not to send him into the millennium to reunite with parents & continue being raised until adulthood? God would not be unjust to do such a thing: After all, both angels and man got Free Will. And, it would neither be "cruel" nor violate known Scripture. Odd, yes, but falsifiable, no.

So, we must daily search the Scriptures to test, prove, and examine these things.

In CHRIST & KING Jesus,

Gordon Watts, Lakeland, Fla., USA

I've often heard it argued on this forum that there is no passage of Scripture that unequivocally states that there is an opportunity for lost people to be forgiven or redeemed after death. It's also often said that there is no passage that unequivocally states that there is not that same opportunity after death. I read this today and thought that it may bring light on the issue, forgive me if it's been mentioned before.


Here Jesus states that the unpardonable sin will not be forgiven in this age or the next. Is Jesus therefore implying that forgiveness is then available in the afterlife for others who do not commit the unpardonable sin? It would appear so (otherwise, why would He even mention it if it is guaranteed that forgiveness is impossible after death?).

I have trouble reconciling this passage with ultimate universal reconciliation (since there will be some who remain unforgiven) but I can at least see the possibility for a great many people to have the opportunity to be saved after they die (if indeed Jesus is implying that it's possible).

[Paidion]

Perhaps there are no pre-millenialists, other than myself who post to THEOS, but to me "this age" is the new age of the Kingdom ushered in by Christ, and "the age to come" is the mature stage of the Kingdom which begins after Christ returns (id est "The Millenium").

In His Kingdom parables, Jesus illustrated the three stages of the Kingdom. Here is an example of each:

1. The infant stage

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” (Luke 17:20,21)

Right in the midst of the Pharisees was the Kingdom of God in its infant stage. A kingdom consists of a king and his subjects. In this case, King Jesus was in their midst together with his subjects, his disciples.

Matthew 13:44 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

A person who comes to see the value of the Kingdom is willing to let go of all that he has in order to obtain it.


2.The growing stage

Another parable he put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches." (Matthew 13:31,32)

3. The mature stage

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The son of man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matthew 13:40-43)

The Kingdom of God (or "heaven") will have reached its full maturity after Christ returns and remove all things that "offend", that is, things which cause people to stumble, as well as lawless people. The overcomers will rule with HIm during the earthly Kingdom age (The "Millenium")

[steve]

I am not premillennial, but I agree with everything that Paidion just posted above—except, I don't see the mature stage of the kingdom as a thousand years long, but rather as eternal.

[Paidion]

Well, actually I am inclined to see the mature stage of the kingdom as much longer than 1000 years also, but not as eternal. Perhaps Christ will reign on the renewed earth for only a thousand years; I don't know. I don't claim to have any definite ideas concerning the meaning of the vision experienced by the writer of Revelation.

But I do think Paul's passage in I Cor 15 is enlightening.

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Is this death in Adam physical? I think it is. Therefore the being "made alive" is also physical. I think Paul is speaking of the resurrection of all people. Jesus classified this as "the resurrection of the righteous" and "the resurrection of the unrighteous." The main reason I think this being "made alive" is physical is that this whole chapter (I Corinthians 15) is about resurrection — Paul begins with Christ's resurrection and then discusses man's resurrection. Next Paul proceeds to discuss the sequence of the resurrection of all:

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

The first man to receive a true resurrection was Jesus Christ. Previous to Christ's resurrection others were said to be "raised" to life (such as Lazarus), but they did not experience a true resurrection. It was more like a resuscitation. (No doubt Lazarus died again). But Paul in his description of resurrection says we shall be raised immortal.

So Christ was the first to be raised immortal. He was the firstfruits of the resurrection. Possibly those others who were raised shortly after could be counted together with Christ among "the first fruits" of the resurrection. The next stage of the resurrection occurs when Christ returns. That's when "those who are alive and remain are caught up together to "meet" the Lord in the air." (I Thessalonians 4:15). The Greek word translated as "meet" was also used when people came out to meet a conquering king and usher him back to his city. It may be that those who are caught up will return with Christ to the earth to reign with Him.

24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

It may not be that "the end" will not occur immediately after the resurrection of those who belong to Christ. There may be thousands or even millions of years transpire before "the end." I think the period prior to "the end" will extend to whatever time is necessary for all be reconciled to God. When all have been reconciled, then all of Christ's enemies will have been put under His feet.

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

When all have been reconciled there will be no more death either physical or "spiritual". There will be no more "second death", which is the Lake of Fire. For it will not be needed.
Origen thought that "death" in this passage was personified by Satan, and that he was "the last enemy" to be destroyed. But he said that this is not to be understood that his substance will be destroyed, but that his purpose and hostile will is to be destroyed, and that his destruction means not his ceasing to exist but ceasing to be an enemy and ceasing to be death. (De Principiis, I. vi. 1-4)

28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

This suggests to me that the Kingdom of Christ will end. For He reigns only until all things have been put under His feet (vs25). "Then the Son Himself will be subject to [the Father]." I understand this as meaning that the Son will turn the Kingdom over to the Father. "God will be all in all." God will finally be united with the entire universe of sentient beings. Finally all will become ONE as Jesus and His Father are ONE. Either this means that a Kingdom as such, with a King and his subjects will not longer be necessary, or else it means that God the Father will be King in an everlasting Kingdom.

[psimmond]

Hi Paidion,
I have a few questions about your view. There were a few things that were not clear to me:

1. Does the millennial period (1000 yrs. or perhaps much more) happen during what you call the mature stage?
2a. When Christ reigns on the new earth will he be reigning with the believers who had previously died but have now been resurrected as well as the believers who were alive at his return?
2b. Will all who reign with Christ during this millennial period have new physical imperishable bodies?
3. Will death be done away with (thrown into the lake of fire) at the start of this millennial period?
4. When the millennial period ends and Christ ceases to reign, do people continue living on the renewed earth (lives that never end)?

[Paidion]

1. Does the millennial period (1000 yrs. or perhaps much more) happen during what you call the mature stage?

I think the mature stage begins at the beginning of that period. It seems that those who will share in the first resurrection will be τελειος, a word which can mean either "mature" or "complete" ("perfect"). I am sure that those who reach that τελειος (It seems certain through the enabling grace of Christ together with their coöperation) will maintain it permanently.

2a. When Christ reigns on the new earth will he be reigning with the believers who had previously died but have now been resurrected as well as the believers who were alive at his return?

I think so, that is if they were overcomers through the blood of the Lamb.

2b. Will all who reign with Christ during this millennial period have new physical imperishable bodies?

Yes

3. Will death be done away with (thrown into the lake of fire) at the start of this millennial period?

As I see it, not in general. Only for those who share in the first resurrection when Christ comes. I think others alive at that time will continue to be mortal. They are the ones over whom Christ and His saints will rule.

4. When the millennial period ends and Christ ceases to reign, do people continue living on the renewed earth (lives that never end)?

My thought is that when "the end" comes, all will be reconciled to God, and all will then have immortal bodies. I am inclined to believe that they will continue to live on the renewed earth, and that "heaven" is the state in which they will live rather than the location. But I don't take a strong, immovable stance on this or any of the other thoughts which I have expressed.

I do take a strong stance on sotierology, but eschatology — that's very "iffy"! I may someday find out I was totally wrong. And that won't bother me a bit.

[psimmond]

Thanks for your answers. Like you, I'm pretty "iffy" when it comes to eschatology.

I wrote: 3. Will death be done away with (thrown into the lake of fire) at the start of this millennial period?

Paidion wrote: As I see it, not in general. Only for those who share in the first resurrection when Christ comes. I think others alive at that time will continue to be mortal. They are the ones over whom Christ and His saints will rule.

This would be quite interesting. Almost like gods walking the earth with mortals.

So during this period, those who are under the reign of Christ and the Church will continue to live and die as we do now, and during the course of their lives they will choose to submit to the lordship of Christ or not--like it is now. If they choose to follow Christ, do you think they will instantly receive new imperishable bodies at the point of conversion? Just curious

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

When all have been reconciled, then all of Christ's enemies will have been put under His feet.

Upon what do you base the idea that "being put under his feet" means being reconciled?

[Paidion]

Homer, upon what would you base the contrary? God doesn't force people to submit to Him now. He is not interested in a population of marionettes which he can control with spiritual strings. He is interested in people who will willingly submit to Him. Human armies conquer countries with force, and forcibly cause people reluctantly to submit. God conquers people through love, winning them to HImself so that they willingly and joyfully submit.