Talbott's Presentation

[Homer]

And my opinion is that sometimes Moses commandments were his own ideas put forth to deal with some of the difficult problems of the day. Some instructions didn't seem to make sense. Why were the people not to make clothing made from more than one type of material? Or was it symbolic—that they needed to be a pure people and worship the one true God and no other.

Isn't this precisely the attitude of Naaman when he was told to dip himself in the Jordan seven times? But Abraham was our example - when told to sacrifice his son he didn't question why or whether it made sense, but hastened to obey. Seems to me Naaman's attitude colors a lot of thinking regarding hell, homosexuality, and so forth today.

[steve]

Seems to me Naaman's attitude colors a lot of thinking regarding hell...

Naaman and Abraham were both told to do something that did not seem to make sense to them. Whose thinking regarding hell does this resemble? It would have to be someone whose position is something like, "The Bible teaches thus-and-so about hell, but I can't see any sense in it, so I am inclined to disagree with it." In my research have not encountered anyone whose arguments resemble this. All the people I have read defend their view of hell as something they see as agreeable with scripture.

[jriccitelli]

Naamans attitude colors everyone’s thinking to some degree, so how can you pick on Homers observation regarding Paidion’s statement, when Paidion just made comments like;

‘I don't listen to Moses. I am a disciple of Jesus the Son of God and I listen to what He instructed’
‘my opinion is that sometimes Moses commandments were his own ideas put forth to deal with some of the difficult problems of the day’

Abraham 'believed' Gods word to him and obeyed it, fearing God.
Naaman 'didn’t believe' and yet it was all God asked of him, simply to believe.
Jesus spoke of Gehenna and fire and Judgment as destruction, torment and finality, do you believe this?
The Old Testament also speaks exclusively of death, destruction, punishment and the finality of it all.
You speak of death, destruction, punishment and the finality of it all in many of your lectures online, some people believe it and some people don’t, so how is this not what Homer is talking about?

Death and punishment have been turned into – temporal earthly judgments, and - hell is turned into a place people come out of rather than being warned of at face value - death - the clear ‘intended’ impression that they should have on the reader of these hundreds of passages, and chapters of punishments and judgments on sin - death - then the second death.
In arguing over the meaning of Gehenna we have ignored the plain implications of Judgment; Death.

Like Naaman, a reader can could 'easily' discern that the Bible text says repent, turn from sin and believe, OR ELSE you will be judged and die. But instead many refuse to believe, and of course to deny what the Prophet of God said is unbelief; “in the day you eat of it you will die”. Old testament / New testament both are the same, same God, same mandates same judgments, UNLESS you repent and believe Gods Word you will die, twice.

[Paidion]

JR, Homer wasn't making an observation about my statement which you quoted. What I think Homer was bringing out (and if I am wrong, he is most welcome to correct me) is that my thinking that the law against mixing two or more different materials to make a fabric didn't make sense is similar to the attitude of some toward hell or homosexuality. Homer thought that some people's thinking about homosexuality is something like this, "It doesn't make sense that God forbids homosexuality since people are born that way, and thus it is just as natural to them as heterosexuality is to the vast majority of people." Concerning hell, I think Homer was thinking that believers in universal reconciliation of everyone to God, would think this way, "It doesn't make sense that a God of total love would either send people to hell forever, or annihilate them."

In other words, Homer was saying that we need to go by scripture, and not simply our feeling that something that was commanded in scripture "doesn't make sense."

Steve wasn't "picking" on Homer or on anything he wrote. Steve simply pointed out that those on the forum who argue for some particular view of hell have not expressed the "does not make sense" thinking as an argument, but that they have defended their views with scripture.

[jriccitelli]

Refusing, questioning, = unbelief / obedience = belief, the Bible does not make a big difference between to the two, so I don’t know why you are.
And I don’t know ‘exactly’ what Homer meant, but I do know what the story of Naaman is about.
And I wasn’t ‘addressing’ Homers comment, I was speaking of ‘Naamans’ attitude of unbelief. This is a very simple story that perfectly describes peoples refusal of the Gospel – that it’s too easy. Who’s argument does that sound like? Note your post today, mocking belief that we can be saved as ‘easy believism’ (pg 3 ‘Help me get ready…’), sound familiar now?

The story speaks of faith, obedience, salvation, listening to Gods word from the prophets (rather than second guessing the simple command), the Jordan speaks of even more, divine work and salvation.

I point out again that UR is a refusal to believe that we will die, and be destroyed forever if we refuse Him;
(These warning do not speak of post-mortem repentance, UR, or universalism, they are no different than the New Testament mandate that you 'must' repent and believe, that is the best thing to do with the warnings - believe)

‘See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven’ (Hebrews 12:25)
‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him’ (Duet 18:19)
‘Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.' (Acts 3:23)
"And the LORD has sent to you all His servants the prophets again and again, but you have not listened nor inclined your ear to hear, 5saying, Turn now everyone from his evil way and from the evil of your deeds, and dwell on the land … 7"Yet you have not listened to Me," declares the LORD, "in order that you might provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands to your own harm. 8"Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Because you have not obeyed My words, 9 behold, I will send and take all … and I will utterly destroy them and make them a horror and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation... and I will make it an everlasting desolation. 13I will bring upon that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book which Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations.... take this cup of the wine of wrath from My hand and cause all the nations to whom I send you to drink it. 16"They will drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword that I will send among them." 17 Then I took the cup from the LORD'S hand and made all the nations to whom the LORD sent me drink it: 18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and its kings [and] its princes... 26 and all the kings of the north, near and far, one with another; and all the kingdoms of the earth which are upon the face of the ground, and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them. 27"You shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Drink, be drunk, vomit, fall and rise no more because of the sword which I will send among you."' 28"And it will be, if they refuse to take the cup from your hand to drink, then you will say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts: "You shall surely drink! 29"For behold, I am beginning to work calamity in [this] city which is called by My name, and shall you be completely free from punishment? You will not be free from punishment; for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth," declares the LORD of hosts.' 30"Therefore you shall prophesy against them all these words, and you shall say to them, 'The LORD will roar from on high And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will shout like those who tread [the grapes], Against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31A clamor has come to the end of the earth, Because the LORD has a controversy with the nations. He is entering into judgment with all flesh; As for the wicked, He has given them to the sword,' declares the LORD." 32Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, evil is going forth From nation to nation, And a great storm is being stirred up From the remotest parts of the earth. 33"Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground... "He has left His hiding place like the lion; For their land has become a horror Because of the fierceness of the oppressing [sword] And because of His fierce anger." (Jer.25)

I believe this means death to all these kings, and some people, and UR refuses to believe it is death, but say rather; these verses are Gods way of - what!?
God is giving us all warning, of what? Death. I do see any evidence of these evil empires repenting.

"And you will say to them, 'Thus says the LORD, "If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, 5to listen to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I have been sending to you again and again, but you have not listened"(Jer. 26)

[RICHinCHRIST]

I point out again that UR is a refusal to believe that we will die, and be destroyed forever if we refuse Him...

And those who hold to UR would say that traditionalists or annihilationists refuse to believe that God is determined enough to create a scenario in which His chiefest desire comes to pass (that His will is truly done). Just because advocates of universal reconciliation do not read the words death, or destroyed the same as you doesn't mean that they are refusing what the Scriptures teach. It just means they have a different way of explaining the concepts. Advocates of UR certainly believe that spiritual death is a consequence for sin, and that the lost will suffer some type of destruction in the afterlife. They just think it will culminate in the restoration of the person and that their sinfulness will be destroyed, not their existence.

[steve7150]

Death and punishment have been turned into – temporal earthly judgments, and - hell is turned into a place people come out of rather than being warned of at face value - death - the clear ‘intended’ impression that they should have on the reader of these hundreds of passages, and chapters of punishments and judgments on sin - death - then the second death.
In arguing over the meaning of Gehenna we have ignored the plain implications of Judgment; Death.







I take the OT warnings about death as physical death yet everyone ultimately is raised up again to face judgment. If final death was the warning then why raise up the unbeliever to face judgment and physical death a second time? The "death" the unbeliever received already in his physical life was his judgment, why raise him up to destroy him again?
The CU would say the judgment day "judgment" entails facing whatever wrath may have been stored up against the judged party but also an opportunity for restoration, or else why raise the guilty party up at all?

[Homer]

I take the OT warnings about death as physical death yet everyone ultimately is raised up again to face judgment. If final death was the warning then why raise up the unbeliever to face judgment and physical death a second time? The "death" the unbeliever received already in his physical life was his judgment, why raise him up to destroy him again?
The CU would say the judgment day "judgment" entails facing whatever wrath may have been stored up against the judged party but also an opportunity for restoration, or else why raise the guilty party up at all?

Here is a pertinent example of what I was referring to earlier - the "it doesn't make sense to me" argument. No reference to or explanation based on scripture. We have seen this over and over ad infinitum from the UR folks. "God is a loser if all aren't saved" and so forth. Starting with a presupposition based on an idea of what God must do or what is "fair" and then shoe horning the scripture to fit that idea yields poor conclusions IMO. And we see it from the homosexual advocates. Scripture rather plainly says something, but that can't be, so fictive "scriptural" arguments are promoted to defend the indefensible. IMO, anyway.

[Paidion]

Homer, do you give room for a different understanding from yours? Is it possible that scripture does NOT "plainly say" the things which you believe. Is it possible that you could unwittingly be "shoehorning" it to fit your own preconceived ideas? Is it possible that your strong repugnance of universal reconciliation is based not on what scripture "plainly says" but upon your feeling that if God were to save all, it wouldn't be fair?

[jriccitelli]

Paidion, you don’t even believe Moses, I dare to ask what you think of 'all' the Prophets, say Jeremiah (above). I already went through your accusation of ‘our selfish, unfair, mean spirited thinking once before, it has nothing to do with ‘our’ emotions. We may be showing 'more' love by pleading and warning someone about Gods assurance - that God meant what He says. We are only looking at Gods Word from Genesis to Revelation.
The Bible has nonstop warnings, judgments and punishments on the unbeliever, and a definite dividing between light and dark, sheep and goats, foolish and ready. In denial of this ultimate end, UR’s defense puts all it’s hope in a post second death resurrection, which make’s ‘all’ Gods judgments temporal, tolerable, and worthwhile. Yet, are not the righteous also warned to expect persecution, pain and death?

Steve, that’s right, you said it yourself, everyone knows; ‘everyone ultimately dies’ so it doesn’t make much sense to UR proponents. If you are thinking Jesus, Moses, Prophets and scripture are ‘only’ warning about physical death, then I don’t know how all the warnings of death could really be understood to amount to much other than what was obviously going to happen to everyone, regardless of what they do.

But the warning ‘does make sense’ if it means what it means; Death, death now, future and forever - unless you repent and believe. With so much scripture detailing the unrepentant unbelievers death and future as destruction, ruin, annihilation, forgotten, no-more, cut-off, blotted out, extinguished, etc, etc. to deny so much can only be accredited to ‘unbelief’.

Read again through the Prophets, they are telling ‘everyone’ unless you repent you will die, and not 'only' die but a everlasting death and a destruction. It makes no sense to assume they are ‘only’ speaking of the first death, and it doesn’t make sense to imagine they are ‘only’ speaking about sinners ‘then’.
The message is clear; ‘everyone’ must repent and bring a sacrifice for sins, otherwise everyone will die, then, now and future, no difference.
You only have two; a body and a spirit, the Second death is spiritual death, that’s it – death - the end.
Believe it or not.