Talbott's Presentation

[Paidion]

God repeats His judgments and destroys in much the same way over and over

Satan is the destroyer.
God is the restorer.

[jriccitelli]

I wasn’t going to debate your statements tonight Paidion, because I liked your comments on the Deity of Christ. But it just happens that, since it is almost Easter, I picked up in Exodus 12, and I started to read about the Passover;

‘For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments-- I am the LORD. 13 The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy [you] when I strike the land of Egypt’ (12:12) "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you’… (12:23) … you shall say, 'It is a Passover sacrifice to the LORD who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt when He smote the Egyptians, but spared our homes.'" And the people bowed low and worshiped.’ (12:27) Now it came about at midnight that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle. (12:29)

I don’t know exactly where the devil was at this time, but I think Satan was with the Egyptians.
Nevertheless whether it was God or the Angel that was the destroyer here, we do know the only thing that lay between us and death was the innocent lambs blood. The Father sent His only son in our place, the Lamb of God, and by believing - the Angel of death pass’ over.
(As a believer in Jesus as Lord, I know the Lamb took the punishment that He Himself would have had to inflict on us, hence saved by faith from the wrath of the Lamb) Happy Easter

[jriccitelli]

I will continue with Exodus chapter 15;

Then Moses and the people of Israel sang this song to the Lord, saying, “I will sing to the Lord, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea.
(Now that’s not very nice of Him)

2 The Lord is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.
(Apparently Israel thought it was good, they don’t seem to be too concerned about UR at this point)

3 The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is his name.
(Well God should meet Jesus and so learn about what love and UR is all about)

4 “Pharaoh's chariots and his host he cast into the sea, and his chosen officers were sunk in the Red Sea. 5 The floods covered them; they went down into the depths like a stone.
(Perhaps they will all convert now when they see God post-mortem)

6 Your right hand, O Lord, glorious in power, your right hand, O Lord, shatters the enemy.
(I thought Jesus was his right hand, or maybe God has two right hands?)

7 In the greatness of your majesty you overthrow your adversaries, you send out your fury; it consumes them like stubble. 8 At the blast of your nostrils the waters piled up; the floods stood up in a heap; the deeps congealed in the heart of the sea. 9 The enemy said, ‘I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil, my desire shall have its fill of them. I will draw my sword; my hand shall destroy them.’
(My desire? Seems His desire to Judge them means drawing the sword and destroying them)

10 You blew with your wind; the sea covered them; they sank like lead in the mighty waters.11 “Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders? 12 You stretched out your right hand, the earth swallowed them.
(Drowning in the sea, the earth swallowing them, these are mentioned again in NT scripture as warnings)

13 “You have led in your steadfast love the people whom you have redeemed; you have guided them by your strength to your holy abode.
(The scriptures do not to seem to have ‘any’ problem correlating Gods steadfast love with destructive Judgment and death)

14 The peoples have heard; they tremble; pangs have seized the inhabitants of Philistia.15 Now are the chiefs of Edom dismayed; trembling seizes the leaders of Moab; all the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away.16 Terror and dread fall upon them because of the greatness of your arm, they are still as a stone, till your people, O Lord, pass by, till the people pass by whom you have purchased.
(Seems that the punishment is a testimony and a warning to others, and it has had quite an impact. As punishment is suppose to do. It is meant to change the mind of the observer, instill a lesson, invoke a change, but above all, the judgments are 'all' meant to send a message to 'all' – Fear God - or likewise this will also happen to us - at the second death)

17 You will bring them in and plant them on your own mountain, the place, O Lord, which you have made for your abode, the sanctuary, O Lord, which your hands have established. 18 The Lord will reign forever and ever.”
(It seems Gods people can worship God and accept some people will not. It ‘seems’ so harsh, but it seems to me that God wins even though God just cast Pharaoh's chariot, his host, chosen officers into the sea)

[Paidion]

Do you find anything in the teachings of the Lord Jesus or His apostles to support your contention?

With Jesus there was a New Covenant. In Christ, old things have passed away and all things become new.
Jesus contrasted what was "said of old time" with His own sayings which were sometimes the opposite of the Mosaic laws, or at least an improvement.
In ancient Israel, the revelation of God was only partial. In Christ it was complete.
Moses and the prophets sometimes revealed the heart of God. At other times it seems they revealed what was in their own heart, and that was frequently contrary to God.

[jriccitelli]

Jesus is the Lord, and Jesus said;
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (John 3:16-21 NASB)

Paidion you seem to be leaving out the part about having to believe, no one comes to Him unless they believe in Him and drink His blood (You've never answered to the wrath of the Lamb).

[Paidion]

Paidion you seem to be leaving out the part about having to believe, no one comes to Him unless they believe in Him...

I have "left out that part" because it wasn't relevant to the issue being discussed.

JR, what do you think "believe in Him" means? I think "πιστευω" often means "to entrust oneself to". To believe in Christ is to entrust oneself to Him.

A clear scriptural example of "πιστευω" being used in this way is found in John 2:24

Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man. (John 2:23-25 ESV)

The word "entrust" in this verse is none other than "πιστευω." Now if a person entrusts himself to Jesus, He will want to do what Jesus says. One will submit himself to Jesus fully. Jesus gave conditions for discipleship:

"If any one comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26,27,33)

It seems to me that all along you have been leaving out this part.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion

So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Could you elaborate on what you think it means to "renounce all" that a person has? The word "renounce" is apotassomai which means to say goodbye to, set apart, separate, take leave of, bid farewell to, etc. What do you think that looks like? Have you done this with all your possessions? I haven't, and do not know anyone who has. Or is Jesus saying to those who would be his disciples, which involved travelling with Him on His itenerant mission, that they literally must leave all their possesions behind while they go with Him? Peter seems to have kept his fishing boat and nets, etc. back home. What do you think?

[Paidion]

No, I haven't either, in a literal sense. I justify this with the thought that my possessions are not my own but the Lord's to distribute as He sees fit. But I am not sure that this is what He meant—certainly not in the case of the young man to whom He said, "If you will be perfect (complete) sell all you have and give to the poor."

When rich Count Tolstoï became a disciple at about age 60, he sold all of his possessions and shared it with the peasants of Russia, and then lived as a peasant himself.

There are many communal Christian groups in the world today, the largest being the Hutterites in which all goods are held in common as was the case with the first Christians as described in Acts 2 and 4.

So I'm not sure that my self-justification will hold water before the Lord.

[Michelle]

So I'm not sure that my self-justification will hold water before the Lord.

Hello, Paidion. I have a question because I'm intrigued by the way you see things and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts.

You are not sure that in this matter of discipleship you are meeting the requirements of the Lord. Several times you have said that those on the narrow path to perfect obedience will receive the finishing touches (a phrase that almost always brings to mind that little *boop* that Tinkerbell does at the end of the Disney opening) when they are resurrected. You have also recently remarked that ~1% of people at the present time are true disciples, yet ~30% of the world's population claim to be Christian. That means a huge number of people alive at this moment - around 2 billion - are the goats Jesus talks about in Matthew 25, who thought they were disciples but were not. So my question is: How do you know (if you so assume) that you are prepared enough to receive the finishing touches or that you are one that needs to go into correction for a time?

[jriccitelli]

I wrote; I could go on but I was thinking that Paidions 0000000.1 percent hypothesis leaves out the Law of thermodynamics, besides a million other variables…

And Rich asked; You will have to elaborate on this, I'm not following you. I think Paidion's explanation makes logical sense in the context of free will.

In abstract experiments; predictions may come true, but in physical forms predictions are not always true.
Results are not guaranteed by possibilities. It is a fallacy to say if A is possible then A will happen.
Also, you cannot presume any experiment will 'continue', as even math has variables.
In the created world the box might continue to shake, but it may not. Some discs may have glue on one side, but some may somehow get glue on both sides, etc.
The variables (and problems) in a real world begin to multiply by each other, the box may develop a hole, the discs could fall into more glue, the discs may become broken, the shaker might throw the whole box into the LOF, etc. Evolutionists use this same fallacy to ‘suppose the environment is guaranteed’ thus the experiment can go on indefinitely. Such as the common ‘100 monkeys typing on a typewriter indefinitely will eventually write a book’ fallacy. Abstractly maybe, but in the physical world (the world we are dealing with) the typewriters run out of ink, monkeys cannot put new paper in typewriters, typewriters break, etc.
At least the creation debate can look at the results; post-mortem predictions have no guarantee other than Gods Word, so all we have to go on are Gods Word and possibilities. If God did not guarantee or predict something then we have no business doing so. And if we do study past results in Gods word it seems to predict what we expect – variables – and conditions!
So Paidions experiment does not ‘prove’ any result ‘must’ happen, there are always possibilities, and hard evidence still shows that things naturally go from bad to worse (and Murphy was an optimist).

Of course we still have the problem where man is not immortal of himself, God would have to continue to sustain the dead in hell, so then UR says in effect; they are immortal, only dead immortal.
And what condition of mind and sense do the disembodied dead really have? It says believers will be raised clothed but it doesn’t tell us anything about the dead’s working existence other than that they will stand to be judged. Do we know they will have all faculties and senses to logically make a confession and express a devotion to God, while dead? We don't know, but UR insists they will. (Just thinking)