Types, Antitypes, and Universalism

[jriccitelli]

Actually the Jonah example supports the case of Conditional Immortality because if you believe Jonahs experience was like ‘one who died and was buried’ then you would have to admit OT references to death and prayers of deliverance represent the spiritual realities spoken of by Jesus in the NT. And they do, as most people (Traditional and CI proponents) have believed all along, when David speaks of salvation and deliverance from death it can be understood as being saved from ‘death’ - ultimate death – forever death – call it spiritual death, the punishment for sin, first the flesh then the spirit, both dead. ‘Spiritual death’ being the result of Gods final Judgment on us; Punishment, Gehenna, the LOF, forever dead.

To believe 'Jonah is a type of person who died and was buried' using a historical situation to represent the place of the dead would be accurate because Jesus 'confirms' it represents a dead buried person. To believe Jonah is a type of person in hell, Gehenna, in punishment, or in the LOF is not what Jesus is confirming. Nor does Jesus say this event represents anything post judgment or in hell, only post death.
In fact the repentance of Jonah represents a person who comes to his senses ‘before’ actually dying, much like David spoke of. As David probably inspired the psalm that Jonah prayed while in the belly of the fish. The Psalm of Jonah not only reflects on Ps. 42:7-9 and 18:5 which is also 2 Samuel 22, but it calls to mind the psalms spoken of Jesus in Ps.16:10 and 22:1. Note also Ps. 116;
'The cords of death encompassed me And the terrors of Sheol came upon me; I found distress and sorrow. 4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD: "O LORD, I beseech You, save my life!" 5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is compassionate. 6The LORD preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me'

In fact Jonah, like Jesus, may be one of only very few, who have come back from the dead to preach, but that is the point of Jesus’ reference to Jonah; no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; Jesus was the sign and the warning that Jonah represented. It was ‘not’ a sign that ‘people who are dead can repent’ rather Jonah (and Jesus) was a sign that you need to repent now or else you will die (otherwise the message would go something like “if you don’t repent now, you will when your dead”).
Jesus is the ‘only’ sign, suggesting no other sign or reason would be given for them to repent. Jesus seemed to believe that 'He is enough' for men to choose and believe, accept or reject. The whole story is a warning to 'consider' Sheol and death, and the one who came back from the dead - therefore repent, otherwise God will Judge you upon this sign. And that means 'death' is a result of your rejection of the sign.

[Homer]

We can at least give the universalists credit for trying. Actually, Jonah is a terrible example of type-antitype as an argument for universalism:

Matthew 12:40, New King James Version (NKJV)

40. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So if Jonah's time in the belly of the great fish is symbolic of hell and post mortem reformation, the anti-type would have Jesus being reformed in hell while He lay in the grave?

The universalists need to find their type-antitype elsewhere.

[jriccitelli]

I think this ‘demonstrates’ that what the Old Testament implies about 'future' death and judgment, is what a person (Rich in this case) would 'naturally (and correctly) think' the OT is describing , especially in light of the NT revelation and confirmation of hell, heaven and a Judgment Day (because the NT language is all pulled from all over the OT). Historical examples can indeed represent the final judgments, and why not? Especially since NT writers use the OT without caution to explain everything spiritual ‘and’ future.

Jesus sure doesn’t have a problem using historical situations and judgments to explain future ones, and the other NT writers use OT texts from everywhere to support doctrines without ever bringing up an argument that sounds like ‘well that was then and has no application to us now’ it is often quite the contraire – the OT ‘is’ explaining the future and kingdom – by example and illustration using historical references to warn us of the future Judgment. All the while giving historical tastes and illustrations of what good things are given in the future to those who repent like those who repented at the preaching of Jonah, Jesus, and all the rest!

[Todd]

For annihilation, we basically start with the eternal conscious torment model and say that when they are done paying they blink out of existence. For both parties it would be fair since they were tortured the right amount for what they did wrong. No one gets away with anything, and the punishment is fair.

Doug,

What is the purpose for raising the dead only to destroy them again? I see no logic in that. If non-christians are not welcome in heaven, why not simply let them stay dead?

Todd

[Paidion]

It's as Doug says, "They have to PAY"! In what sense a person can PAY for wrongdoing, I guess I'll never know. People say that Jesus paid the price for our wrongdoing. If it is possible for us to pay for it ourselves, then Jesus payment isn't necessary. But of course, they say that they can get "covered" by Jesus' payment so that we don't have to pay. However, if we refuse to trust in "the finished work of Christ", then we'll have to pay "an eternal penalty". But what does that really mean? It means that we never CAN pay for our sin!

So, as you say, Todd. What is the purpose of raising them up only to destroy them again? The only purpose is that of revenge. They did wrong; make 'em suffer!

[Singalphile]

Todd wrote:
Doug,

What is the purpose for raising the dead only to destroy them again? I see no logic in that. If non-christians are not welcome in heaven, why not simply let them stay dead?

Todd

You asked essentially the exact same questions about a year ago in this thread ("God's Wrath") of yours, and there are several responses.

[Todd]

You asked essentially the exact same questions about a year ago in this thread ("God's Wrath") of yours, and there are several responses.

Yes, I've asked this question many times to get people to think this through. Paidion has correctly pointed out the only possible answer. God must want/need revenge if annihilation is correct. I don't believe the Father of Mercies would conceive of such an arrangement as that.

Todd

[Homer]

Paidion has correctly pointed out the only possible answer. God must want/need revenge if annihilation is correct. I don't believe the Father of Mercies would conceive of such an arrangement as that.

Could you explain how annihilation would be inconsistent with the many references to the wrath of God/Jesus?

For example:

John 3:36, New King James Version (NKJV)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

[Todd]

Could you explain how annihilation would be inconsistent with the many references to the wrath of God/Jesus?

For example:

John 3:36, New King James Version (NKJV)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Hi Homer,

I view the wrath of God as explained in Rom 1:18-32. These individuals, while yet alive physically, have the wrath of God abiding on them. We know that they were still alive when Paul wrote this, because Paul said they deserve death (v.32). It is not referring to some post-death punishment IMO.

Another passage that supports this idea is Gal 6:8; he who sows to the flesh reaps corruption. A corrupted individual is abiding in God's wrath, yet he is still alive physically.

Todd

[dwilkins]

Could you explain how annihilation would be inconsistent with the many references to the wrath of God/Jesus?

For example:

John 3:36, New King James Version (NKJV)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Hi Homer,

I view the wrath of God as explained in Rom 1:18-32. These individuals, while yet alive physically, have the wrath of God abiding on them. We know that they were still alive when Paul wrote this, because Paul said they deserve death (v.32). It is not referring to some post-death punishment IMO.

Another passage that supports this idea is Gal 6:8; he who sows to the flesh reaps corruption. A corrupted individual is abiding in God's wrath, yet he is still alive physically.

Todd

The context of Romans 1 is very important. I'll quote the part you mentioned:

Romans 1:18-32 (ESV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Question: How is it that the people in view knew that they deserved to die for violating the precepts above?
Question: How is it that the invisible attributes and power of God were demonstrated?

I suggest that the answer is the Law of Moses. The Law and Tabernacle were designed to teach Israel about God. The reason the Temple became known as "Heaven and Earth" is that the artistry was designed to teach the Israelites about God and his attributes. The list of bad acts above is the history of Israel as Moses dealt with them regarding the golden calf and other events. They knew that they were due to die for their sins because the Law told them so.

The wrath that Paul refers to is the judgment of God that would fall on that generation, the first wave of which (represented in the first portions of the Olivet Discourse and the first seals of Revelation) was already present at the time of writing in 57AD.

Doug