The Penalty of death

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jriccitelli
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The Penalty of death

Post by jriccitelli » Mon May 13, 2013 10:13 am

This is to respond to what it means to have a penalty of death, and how Christ paid the penalty of death.
This is also a response to the side bar discussion under another thread titled;
Types, Antitypes, and Universalism
I'm not aware of any scripture that says that sin can be paid for at all by anybody. (Paidion: Types, Antitypes, and Universalism pg.3)
Don’t the following verses (along with hundreds of others in the law) speak of man having to pay penalties for sins?;

"Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from [every] man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man. 6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man. (Genesis 9:5)
When a man or woman commits any of the sins of mankind, acting unfaithfully against the LORD, and that person is guilty, 7 then he shall confess his sins which he has committed, and he shall make restitution in full for his wrong and add to it one-fifth of it, and give [it] to him whom he has wronged. (Num.5:6-7)
'He shall also bring his guilt offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin. 7 But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD his guilt offering for that in which he has sinned, two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. (Lev 5:6-7)

… To me this legalistic type of thinking is entirely absent (Paidion)
Doesn’t the following sound kind of legalistic; “In the day that you sin you will die
And; "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. (Genesis 17:7) Isn’t a Covenant a lot like a legal contract?
And; “Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.”' (Deut.27:26). Is not the Law a bit legalistic?
Isn’t our own legal system modeled after Gods ‘law’?
How can we say legalistic type of thinking is entirely absent from the Bible? The word law occurs over 600 times.
‘There is plenty in the Old Testament where wrongdoers are put to death. But that fact doesn't imply that they "paid" for their wrongdoing’ (Paidion)
True, they may actually be due ‘more’ punishment than that. Death may just be the beginning of their punishment, but never the less one sin is all God allows before the penalty of death is applied. After the ‘first’ sin, a payment of – blood – was required and 'must' be paid. You’re own blood, or an animal, that is Gods law.

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Re: The Penalty of death

Post by jriccitelli » Mon May 13, 2013 11:32 am

People say that Jesus "paid" for the sins of the world, but where do you find that? (Paidion)
I thought John said; “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”
(The mandate being; believe His Word, and bring the Lamb of God as your sacrifice to God. Otherwise we are still without a sacrifice and dead in trespasses and sins)
Acts 20:28 “He purchased with His own blood”
1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price”
1 Cor 7:23 ‘You have been bought with a price”
Romans 3:25-5:1 “as a propitiation in His blood through faith”
1 John 2:2 “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins”
1 John 4:10 “and sent His son to be the propitiation for our sins”
Rev 14:4 “these have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb”


It’s true we could pay for our own Sin, but sin doesn’t set the price of the penalties - God sets the price.
And still having your penalty paid is just the end of punishment; you are still a dead sinner.
The gift of life is something else; A New Life is only through faith and inclusion in the resurrected body of Christ.

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Re: The Penalty of death

Post by jriccitelli » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:44 pm

The penalty is death, clearly. This cannot mean only physical death, because righteous men still die, and then all could go to heaven without Christ anyway, because they "paid" the price of sin by physically "dying" (From the 'Did God die on the cross? thread, pg 5, Dec 27)
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=40
There is no one righteous. No one atones for their own sins, and no one goes to heaven just because they die. We are just dead sinners. Jesus was not a dead sinner' (Me, From the 'Did God die on the cross? thread, pg 5, Dec 27)
Note that: 'if' Jesus was like us 'spiritually dead' (at birth or whenever proponents assume this happens) then He wouldn't be the same Jesus I read of in scripture. Jesus was not dead spiritually. And neither are we, we are under the 'condemnation' of sin, it is a judgment. We are dead in our sins, as one without hope. Jesus was neither under the condemnation of sin.

The death of the spirit will happen after the Judgment in the lake of fire. The death we die to self at our baptism, if this speaks of the death of ‘both’ our body and spirit, I would be in agreement (if it were necessary to go that far). But for ET it can’t be so, because as some believe: we are ‘already’ dead spiritually, thus at baptism only the body can die. So if baptism is the symbolic gesture of death with Christ, Eternal tormentism-ism would seem to embrace the idea of death being already dead prior to baptism. Again this idea of being spiritually dead already, does not seem to fit.
If baptism speaks of the body, so does resurrection. The only place in scripture where it seems the spirit of man can die, is in the lake of fire, the second death.

dizerner

Re: The Penalty of death

Post by dizerner » Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:44 am

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Re: The Penalty of death

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:37 am

The body does not die at baptism in any sense. In fact Paul said "the life I now live in the flesh." (Diz)
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh(Gal. 2:20)
You do know Paul is talking about living in the body that has been crucified and died with Christ?
We died with Christ, and we were raised with Christ. This body is considered dead, it is the spirit that makes our body alive, and the life we now live is in this dead body, being made alive by his Spirit. We weren't already actually dead, we were positionally dead (condemned to death). We make a conscious decision to accept His death as our own when we are baptized. That is why He says: to pick up our cross:
‘Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin' (Romans 6:3-6)
‘The death we die to self at our baptism, if this speaks of the death of ‘both’ our body and spirit… at baptism only the body can die… baptism is the symbolic gesture of death with Christ… (Me, above)
I said it is symbolic, I don’t know if you caught that. I don’t know if you know I am agreeing with Romans were it says “consider yourselves to be dead to sin” (positionally), but alive to God in Christ Jesus (literally in the spirit, and symbolically in the body) (Romans 6:11)
Death already being dead? I don't have an idea what you mean by that’ (Diz)
Not your fault, I added an extra word (death) to that sentence by accident :? . It should have read:
‘Eternal tormentism-ism would seem to embrace the idea of being already dead prior to baptism’
If we are already dead literally or symbolically, then it is not necessary to die again literally ‘or’ symbolically. So at my baptism I made the choice to literally die with Christ. In other words:
1. I agreed I was a hopeless sinner by dying symbolically when I was baptized (my spirit did not die: Jesus saved me).
2. And then I was raised to life literally (in the Spirit) and symbolically (of body) in baptism 'because I believed' Christ died for me and I was saved from death. Then He raised me with Himself out of the water.
I accepted the penalty for my sins, which was death, and through baptism I died with Christ who also paid my penalty, yet because He was the life, I was raised with Him to eternal life. My baptism was literally in the spirit, and we who have believed and been baptized are alive in the Spirit, and we posses eternal life (Positionally: by faith in Him).
‘Scripture talks of "death leading to death." We are dead, we produce sins’ (Diz)
I guess you are speaking of the verse in 2Cor. where it speaks of Christ either being life for a person who believes, or death to one who doesn’t: ‘For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; 16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life(2Cor 2:16)
(Interesting that it says 'from life to life')
Last edited by jriccitelli on Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dizerner

Re: The Penalty of death

Post by dizerner » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:32 pm

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Re: The Penalty of death

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:39 pm

I said it is symbolic, I don’t know if you caught that. I don’t know if you know I am agreeing with Romans were it says “consider yourselves to be dead to sin” (positionally), but alive to God in Christ Jesus (literally in the spirit, and symbolically in the body) me from above

Symbolically in the body. 'Positionally' we have been raised with Christ (just as we were positionally dead in sins). Looking 'forward' to our literal resurrection, having already passed from death to life. And looking forward to soon be free from this literal body of death.

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