Aionios Means Lasting?

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Homer
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:27 am

Thrombomodulin,

For balance here is a long article I would recommend:

http://www.bridgewaybible.com/index.php ... ng-forever

The article shows that not only aionios is correctly translated eternal in numerous places in the New Testament, but also in the Septuagint, as owlam in the Hebrew sometimes means eternal. The issue is huge for the universalist as their attempts to undo Matthew 25:46 show. If aionios means eternal in that place the universalist cause is lost.

Myself, there are many plain and simple statements by Jesus and others that do not fit the universalist paradigm, and thay all compliment each other. For example:

Matthew 13:29-30, 38-43, 49-50 (New King James Version)

29. But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

38. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42. and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

49. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50. and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 18:8

8. “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

John 15:6

6. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

5. which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6. since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7. and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8. in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10. when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Hebrews 10:26-27

26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 12:28-29

28. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29. For our God is a consuming fire.

Revelation 14:9-11

9. Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10. he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:14-15

14. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Doesn't take a rocket scientist to get it, there is an overwhelming picture of destruction. If universalism is true, we should expect at least as many texts favorable to their cause that describe repentance and reconciliation in hell. Where are they found?

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steve
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by steve » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:25 am

Homer,

Of the verses you listed, only two seem to be undeniably referring to eschatological judgment, and they do not reveal the final outcome for those who end up in hell.

2 Thess.1:8-9 strikes me as being about eschatological judgment (though some preterists think otherwise), but it seems to describe the initial destruction of the wicked at the appearing of Christ, rather than the final sentencing after the judgment. Since aionios is believed by many of the best evangelical scholars to mean "of the age" (essentially equivalent, in meaning, to our word "eschatological"), it tells us little about final outcomes to be told that they experience "eschatological (aionios) destruction [coming] from the presence of the Lord." What the nature duration and end result of that "eschatological destruction" may be, we are left to speculate.

The other verse is Revelation 20:15, which tells us of the lost (after the judgment) being cast into the lake of fire. What becomes of them after that is not mentioned—which means the verse does not support any one view of hell over another, since all believe the lost will go into the lake of fire.

The two passages from Matthew 13 are, in my opinion, also eschatological—but less clearly so. A good case can be made for applying them to AD 70—though I am not quite convinced of it. In any case, both talk about the lost being cast into a "furnace of fire," which sounds like the equivalent of Revelation 20:15 and its "lake of fire." Since these statements are in parables describing weeds and bad fish being disposed of, it is not clear how much of the parallel between them and humans applies. Certainly weeds and dead fish will "burn up" in a fire (seemingly supporting annihilationism here). Whether fires have this same effect upon humans, made in the image of God, is what is disputed. Perhaps so.

The same analysis applies to the exegesis of John 15:6.

The other verses you gave do not seem to refer to hell at all. Revelation 14:10-11 does not describe persons separated from God, but, rather, being tormented in the presence of the Lamb and of the holy angels. The "fire and brimstone" in the imagery is borrowed from the Sodom and Gomorrah story, and does not necessarily mean hell any more than fire and brimstone refer to hell in Genesis 19:24 or in Revelation 9:17 (where they clearly do not). The ever-rising smoke ascending from their torment is also said to rise from the judged city of Babylon (19:3), which clearly is not identified with hell. I think the destruction of Jerusalem is in view here.

Matthew 18:8-9 is about "Gehenna." It cannot be proved that this word should ever be translated as hell, nor identified with it. I think it is AD 70 here as well.

The passages in Hebrews are (to my mind) almost certainly referring to Jerusalem's destruction.

Until we begin to read passages in the light of their historical milieu, I think hell will be seen in many passages where it has no business being seen.

thrombomodulin
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by thrombomodulin » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:09 am

backwoodsman wrote:
thrombomodulin wrote:there is nothing I have been able to see in the verses F.W. Farrar cited which would ever lead me to think that eternal was a poor or erroneous translation aionios.
Oh, I see what you're saying. I think he means it the other way around -- not that a thoughtful reader should be able to see it's a poor translation, but that he wouldn't be able to deny that Farrar's explanation is reasonable.
You're exactly right. Thanks for clearing this up, I was misunderstanding what Farrar was saying here.

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Homer
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:57 am

If that is what Farrar meant, why did he write this:
John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20? Would not the introduction of the word "endless" into those Divine utterances be an unspeakable degradation of their meaning?
I must be missing something.

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Homer
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:12 am

Steve,

You wrote:
The two passages from Matthew 13 are, in my opinion, also eschatological—but less clearly so. A good case can be made for applying them to AD 70—though I am not quite convinced of it. In any case, both talk about the lost being cast into a "furnace of fire," which sounds like the equivalent of Revelation 20:15 and its "lake of fire." Since these statements are in parables describing weeds and bad fish being disposed of, it is not clear how much of the parallel between them and humans applies. Certainly weeds and dead fish will "burn up" in a fire (seemingly supporting annihilationism here). Whether fires have this same effect upon humans, made in the image of God, is what is disputed. Perhaps so.

The same analysis applies to the exegesis of John 15:6.
Given that the weeds, fish, and branches represent people in the stories, and that the field is the world, there doesn't seem to be much doubt as to how Jesus' hearers would have understood His warning. "The world" doesn't fit with 70AD, where not even all the unbelieving Jews were destroyed.

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Paidion
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by Paidion » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:55 am

Homer wrote:If that is what Farrar meant, why did he write this:
John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20? Would not the introduction of the word "endless" into those Divine utterances be an unspeakable degradation of their meaning?
I must be missing something.
Farrar is saying that if you translate "aionios" as "endless" in those verses, it would terribly degrade the meaning of the verses. To understand the real meaning, one must translate "aionios" in some other way.
Paidion

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steve
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by steve » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:49 pm

Homer wrote:
Given that the weeds, fish, and branches represent people in the stories, and that the field is the world, there doesn't seem to be much doubt as to how Jesus' hearers would have understood His warning. "The world" doesn't fit with 70AD, where not even all the unbelieving Jews were destroyed.
I am inclined to agree with you about AD 70 on these passages. As for the weeds, fish and branches being burned up, though, I can't say whether the imagery is intended to be exact. After all, there are some significant differences between these things and people.

Universalists often say that what is burned up in the wicked is not their essence as human beings, but the "dross" (so to speak) that corrupts them. Paul spoke of a man being "saved, yet through fire," after the wood, hay and stubble has been burned up. I don't actually think that he is referring to the final judgment there, necessarily, but it introduces the possibility of the Bible using metaphors of burning combustible materials in cases where it is not the man himself being annihilated.

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backwoodsman
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by backwoodsman » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:33 pm

Homer wrote:For balance here is a long article I would recommend:
http://www.bridgewaybible.com/index.php ... ng-forever

The article shows that not only aionios is correctly translated eternal in numerous places in the New Testament, but also in the Septuagint, as owlam in the Hebrew sometimes means eternal.
You're right -- it's certainly long! I read most of the first 1/4 and skimmed the rest, so I could've missed something, but it looks like it shows 'eternal' is the correct translation by..... quoting lots of passages where it's translated 'eternal'. That may look like solid evidence to those who are already convinced it's true, but to the rest of us it looks like circular reasoning and grasping at straws, especially in light of the level of scholarship that shows otherwise.

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Homer
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:48 pm

backwoodsman,

you wrote:
...... I could've missed something, but it looks like it shows 'eternal' is the correct translation by..... quoting lots of passages where it's translated 'eternal'. That may look like solid evidence to those who are already convinced it's true, but to the rest of us it looks like circular reasoning and grasping at straws
Assertions are easily made. Could you back up your assertion by showing us where a few of his examples have been incorrectly translated? Here are just a few:

"but of the tree for knowing good and evil, of it you shall not eat; but on the day that you eat of it, you shall die by death [apoyaneisye] ... Then God said, 'see, Adam has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, and now perhaps he might reach out his hand and take of the tree of life and eat, and he will live forever [aion, aiwna]'" Genesis 2:17 with 3:22

15 And I will remember my covenant, ... there shall no longer be water for a deluge, so as to blot out all flesh. 16 And my bow shall be in the cloud, and I will look to remember the everlasting [aionios, aiwnion] covenant between me and the earth, and between every living soul in all flesh, ..." Genesis 9:16

"33 And Abraam planted a field at the well of the oath, and called there on the name of the Lord, the eternal [aionios, aiwniov] God." Genesis 21:33

"14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you. 15 And God said again to Moses, Thus shalt thou say to the sons of Israel, The Lord God of our fathers, the God of Abraam, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever [aionios, aiwnion], and my memorial to generations of generations." Exodus 3:14-15

"18 The Lord reigns for ever [aion, aiwna] and ever [aion, aiwna]." Exodus 15:18

"13 He shall build for me a house to my name, and I will set up his throne even for ever [aion, aiwna]. ... 16 And his house shall be made sure, and his kingdom for ever [aion, aiwnov] before me, and his throne shall be set up for ever [aion, aiwna]. " 2 Samuel 7:13 with 7:16

"16 Take heed lest he rebuke thee: hear this, hearken to the voice of words. 17 Behold then the one that hates iniquities, and that destroys the wicked, who is for ever [aionios, aiwnion] just." Job 34:16-17
especially in light of the level of scholarship that shows otherwise
So Farrar is one that you hold in high regard?

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Homer
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Re: Aionios Means Lasting?

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:28 pm

Steve,

You wrote:
I am inclined to agree with you about AD 70 on these passages. As for the weeds, fish and branches being burned up, though, I can't say whether the imagery is intended to be exact. After all, there are some significant differences between these things and people.

Universalists often say that what is burned up in the wicked is not their essence as human beings, but the "dross" (so to speak) that corrupts them. Paul spoke of a man being "saved, yet through fire," after the wood, hay and stubble has been burned up. I don't actually think that he is referring to the final judgment there, necessarily, but it introduces the possibility of the Bible using metaphors of burning combustible materials in cases where it is not the man himself being annihilated
.

The difficulty here for the universalist is in Jesus' words "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to", Matt 13:24, and "the kingdom of heaven is like", Matt. 13:47, clearly informing us Jesus is making use of analogy. The tares are destroyed in the fire, and so are the bad fish. Tares never become wheat but are burned up as are fruitless branches. I am very familiar with the process. If the "tares" ("sons of the evil one", Jesus' words) are made into wheat, there is no analogy; the kingdom of heaven would not be like Jesus' stories, but would be very much unlike them.
Last edited by Homer on Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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