Aionios Means Lasting?

[Homer]

Thanks Paidion, but I am curious, since you appear to not believe aionios is indicative of any length of time for "correction" to take place in hell, where have you gotten your idea, expressed in the past, that the correction that you say takes place there goes on for a thousand years or more. Are there other passages or Greek words that you think tell us this, if not aionios?

[Paidion]

I got the idea from the expression "for ages of ages" in Revelation. I thought maybe an "age" was a thousand years, and therefore "an age of ages" would be a million years, and "ages of ages" would be even more.
But later I discovered that the Greek word "aiōn" (age) sometime refers to a life time, or even just a few years. So "ages of ages" may be a much shorter time than I had understood it to be in the past. In any case, I believe that ALL of God's judgments are remedial, and He will administer to each individual as much correction as is needed and no more. I also think that not all of this correction will be painful, but some will be loving corrrection which is meant to lead people to repentance.

Nothwithstanding, must not presume on God's kindness. He may have to administer severe correction, if people get too presumptious.

Ro 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?

[thrombomodulin]

[quote="F.W. Farrar On "Aeonian"]
Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20?

[/quote]

Like Homer, I am not seeing why eternal is alleged not be a valid translation in these verses. Perhaps I am not thoughtful reader. Can anyone explain to me why he says this?

I believe that ALL of God's judgments are remedial

How can this be reconciled the kind of parables which depict Jesus as rejecting someone who pleads for his acceptance? For example in Matthew 25:1-13, why does Jesus reject the five foolish virgins who beg for his mercy? Are you making the assumption that the five virgins are not exhibiting a true repentance, and hence remain in need of remedial punishment?


Homer,

I would like to say that a online book recommended by another on this forum appears to conclusively demonstrate that aionios can have the meaning of simply belonging to an age, or pertaining to age without saying anything about duration. See chapter XIV and following if you wish. I have only just begun to look into the topic of views of hell, so I am speaking as a newcomer to this topic. There may very well be some flaw in the arguments presented here that I am not yet aware of. I would be interested in your comments if you choose to read it.

(Edited to not attribute F.W. Farrar quote to a view Paidion's holds)

[Paidion]

Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20?

Well I guess I "wrote" this line in the sense that I posted the piece by F.W. Farrar from the year 1890. But that fact doesn't imply that I accept all that he has written. I just threw it out for the consideration of you all.

[thrombomodulin]

I fixed the quotation, but had not intended my failure to cite it properly to distract from obtaining an answer to the question about why these verses are alleged to support his view.

[Paidion]

I believe that ALL of God's judgments are remedial

How can this be reconciled the kind of parables which depict Jesus as rejecting someone who pleads for his acceptance? For example in Matthew 25:1-13, why does Jesus reject the five foolish virgins who beg for his mercy? Are you making the assumption that the five virgins are not exhibiting a true repentance, and hence remain in need of remedial punishment?

Is there anya reason to presume that because the virgins were not prepared for the bridegoom's return and were therefore excluded from the marriage feast that they are doomed to all eternity?

This is one of Jesus' parables of the Kingdom of Heaven. His various parables describe various stages of the Kingdom. This one speaks of the time the "bridegroom" (Christ) returns. As a historic pre-millenialist, I see this as the time when the millenial reign of Christ and His saints begins here on earth. The foolish virgins are excluded from this special company. I suppose this exclusion could be seen as a sort of "judgment". If that is the case, then clearly there is no remediation involved. But the great judgment is yet to come.

[backwoodsman]

[quote="F.W. Farrar On "Aeonian"]
Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20?

Like Homer, I am not seeing why eternal is alleged not be a valid translation in these verses. Perhaps I am not thoughtful reader. Can anyone explain to me why he says this?[/quote]
It's quite simple, really: The word just doesn't mean 'eternal'. Have you read the article by Heleen Keizer that's been posted in several of these threads?

http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=53316#p53316

I'd also suggest Edward Beecher's 'History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution' (1878), which can be downloaded in PDF or read online at archive.org or books.google.com.

The idea that 'aionios' means 'eternal' traces mostly to Augustine, who didn't speak Greek. Its enshrinement as a doctrine of the Catholic Church was the doing of Justinian, who was more interested in political power than theological truth.

[thrombomodulin]

s there any reason to presume that because the virgins were not prepared for the bridegoom's return and were therefore excluded from the marriage feast that they are doomed to all eternity?

My goal was not to assert any particular view about the duration of hell, but rather only to address the question of whether or not it is indeed true that all punishment is remedial (whether temporal or eternal). I will grant that if the historical pre-millenialist view is correct, then the parable of the ten virgins would not serve as a counter example of punishment that is not remedial.

I have never learned about the historic pre-millenialist view, and therefore I am unable say your explanation is either implausible or incorrect. However, it leads me to wonder if one has to be a historic pre-millenialist in order to believe that all punishment is remedial. If so, I have much work to do in learning about historic pre-millenialism before potentially accepting the view that all punishment is remedial.

Luke 13:25 is a similar passage. Do you understand it in the same way?

[thrombomodulin]

backwoodsman,

No, I haven't yet read the dissertation by Heleen Keizer, but hopefully I can do so in the next few weeks. I read a little more than half of Edward Beecher's book just this past weekend.

I understand from Beecher's book, which is linked in my above post, that "The word just doesn't mean 'eternal'". Even so, there is nothing I have been able to see in the verses F.W. Farrar cited which would ever lead me to think that eternal was a poor or erroneous translation aionios. Yes - I can get that insight that it is an erroneous translation from somewhere else, but I can't get that insight by "thoughtful[ly] read[ing] John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20". I'm just not seeing the point F.W. Farrar is trying to make with these verses.

[backwoodsman]

there is nothing I have been able to see in the verses F.W. Farrar cited which would ever lead me to think that eternal was a poor or erroneous translation aionios.

Oh, I see what you're saying. I think he means it the other way around -- not that a thoughtful reader should be able to see it's a poor translation, but that he wouldn't be able to deny that Farrar's explanation is reasonable.