Why Fire?

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Homer
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by Homer » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:24 am

God's patience, I guess, runs out.
Aren't there a number of instances in the history of the Old Testament where God's patience ran out and people were destroyed?

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steve
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by steve » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:19 pm

As far as we know, no one has ever been eternally and irretrievably destroyed. Everyone who has died (including Christian martyrs) has experienced temporal "destruction" in the same sense as have the wicked in the Old Testament. Fortunately, this life is not the final chapter.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:47 am

Scripture states the wicked are destroyed and burned, and they are then dead. When do they become alive again? There is nothing to indicate they are alive again, only the righteous will see life.
This is to easy grasp and understand, and scripture could not be plainer, yet…
This suggests that the same God who "wanted" the sinner enough to send His Son to die for him is fickle.
Who is suggesting here, me, or God? God is the one throwing people in fire and burning them, it is not 'my' suggestion. God has made it clear, He sent His Son and we must make a ‘choice’.You are the one making it seem fickle, there is nothing about God changing 'His' mind about this – unless we repent we will die – we are the ones that need to change our mind.
While scripture says that "love never fails (ceases)," the contrary is affirmed by this thesis: God loves a person, and "wants" him, right up to the moment of death. However, when the poor fool is unfortunate enough to die, God sees some new, unlovable quality in the same person (what it is, who can say?), so that God doesn't "want" him anymore. God's patience, I guess, runs out.
You make it as if God is unfair, or can’t make a decision. Love requires a choice and a freewill. There is clearly enough scripture about the time running out, there is no paradox here. Scripture clearly has God saying ‘that’s it’, He announces judgment and performs it. He knows their heart, doesn’t He? You are trying to read this love never fails thing ‘into’ it, the scriptures give only 'one' indication – the wicked die, and they are dead. It is nice to imagine otherwise, but God does not have to imagine, God knows the heart, and our future. There is no indication of anything but life for the righteous – and only death for the unrighteous.

The cross was put on this earth, we must make a choice whether or not to believe, just as Moses lifted up the serpent. If God wanted a second world of opportunities, God could have told us (Hinduism has), but He did not disclose any such thing and it is not our place to declare to people what God did not say. He said He would ‘not’ and He said He ‘does not’ change His mind. We must repent and change our mind, then perhaps He will ‘relent’ the destruction He promised. Again, why did He shorten our life from hundreds of years to 70 or so?
As far as we know, no one has ever been eternally and irretrievably destroyed. Everyone who has died (including Christian martyrs) has experienced temporal "destruction" in the same sense as have the wicked in the Old Testament. Fortunately, this life is not the final chapter.
They are 'dead', the righteous unto eternal life, and nothing but an expectation of judgment for the unbelieving and wicked. There is 'nothing' about the unbelieving being made alive again. Dead means dead. fire means fire, destroyed means destroyed.

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steve
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by steve » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:54 am

Scripture states the wicked are destroyed and burned, and they are then dead. When do they become alive again?
I would think the resurrection would be a good guess.
it is not 'my' suggestion. God has made it clear...
Really? Clear? I have not found this to be so. But then, I am not approaching the question with my mind already made-up. This makes a huge difference.
You make it as if God is unfair, or can’t make a decision.
No, I make it as though God has the right and the power to hold out for and obtain what He is seeking, and that even death cannot thwart Him, if He determines to get a certain thing for Himself. You are often trying to justify God's choice to forever destroy people (as if He actually wants to do that and needs some rationalization for His actions). My question is: Where do we ever read that this is what God wants to do? And if He doesn't want anyone to perish, where do we read of any power or policy that can overrule His purpose?

If a man were to spend so much time waxing eloquent about why he would be justified in killing his disobedient children, I would wonder what kind of father I was listening to! Likewise, if a father affirmed his love for his kidnapped children and said that he would pursue the kidnappers and recover his children—but only until they cross the California border, after which, he would simply give up the chase—I would think this man unworthy to be called a father. Some speak as if God is this kind of father. I find this difficult, and not particularly scriptural.
There is 'nothing' about the unbelieving being made alive again. Dead means dead.
Wow! I thought only Jehovah's Witnesses held this doctrine. You might wish to consider John 5:28-29 and Rev.20:12-15 before repeating this view anywhere.

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Michelle
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by Michelle » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:16 am

jriccitelli wrote:He said He would ‘not’ and He said He ‘does not’ change His mind. We must repent and change our mind, then perhaps He will ‘relent’ the destruction He promised.
Side question for JR: You seem to be saying that even those of us who repent are not guaranteed redemption. Is this what you meant to say?
Edited: Or are you just alluding to Jonah?
Again, why did He shorten our life from hundreds of years to 70 or so?
Second side question: Why do you think God shortened life spans? Is it to limit repentance?
Last edited by Michelle on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Homer
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by Homer » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:53 am

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
(JR)
Scripture states the wicked are destroyed and burned, and they are then dead. When do they become alive again?

(Steve)
I would think the resurrection would be a good guess.
Not a very good guess, as the resurrection is presupposed in Jesus' stories. Notice Jesus' stories, and others previously cited, that inform us of the disposition of the saved and the "wicked" (Jesus word, if I may be excused for using it). We hear of the resurrection, the judgment, saving vs. being destroyed. And then we hear further of their future bliss, joy, worship, reigning, etc. with Christ. If universalism is true and there is a process in their future of being reconciled that takes place in hell with a joining of those with the saints, please provide scriptures that tell us of this. Surely this great news is described somewhere in scripture, otherwise it remains fictive.
(JR)
You throw something in to a fire when you don't want it anymore

(Steve)
This suggests that the same God who "wanted" the sinner enough to send His Son to die for him is fickle
But the throwing in the fire stories were told by Jesus, obviously of unwanted things. And the same story retold with different figures. Seems rather emphatic. Why would He mislead us?

Matthew 13:30,40-42, New King James Version (NKJV)
30. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’

40. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42. and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:47-50, New King James Version (NKJV)

47. “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48. which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50. and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."


(Steve)
If a man were to spend so much time waxing eloquent about why he would be justified in killing his disobedient children, I would wonder what kind of father I was listening to! Likewise, if a father affirmed his love for his kidnapped children and said that he would pursue the kidnappers and recover his children—but only until they cross the California border, after which, he would simply give up the chase—I would think this man unworthy to be called a father. Some speak as if God is this kind of father. I find this difficult, and not particularly scriptural.
But Jesus defined them as someone else's children:

Matthew 13:38, New King James Version (NKJV)

38. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.


(JR)
There is 'nothing' about the unbelieving being made alive again. Dead means dead.

(Steve)
Wow! I thought only Jehovah's Witnesses held this doctrine. You might wish to consider John 5:28-29 and Rev.20:12-15 before repeating this view anywhere.
I think JR was referencing the "second death". Do you have information about a "resurrection" from that death?

steve7150
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:20 pm

, please provide scriptures that tell us of this










The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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steve
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by steve » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:23 pm

But Jesus defined them as someone else's children
Yes, but they are God's children by creation and by right. He wants them saved, just as He wanted you saved when you, too, were like them—a child of wrath following the prince of the power of the air (Eph.2:1-2).

No one is a "child of Satan" in the literal sense of Satan having brought them into the world as a parent does. God is the Father of all, in that sense.

To avoid error, one must recognize the wide variety of ways the language of fatherhood and sonship is used in scripture. Satan is the "father" of sinners in that they are following the way that he pioneered—just as Jabal is the "father" of all herdsmen, and Jubal is the "father" of all musicians (Gen.4:20-21)—because these men were the the founders and pioneers of those ways of life.

People may be children of Satan by affinity (John 8:44), but all are children of God by creation (Mal.2:10; Luke 3:38; Acts 17:28-29).

The Father who brings children into the world is the one who naturally has the greatest concern for (and responsibility for) their well-being. I believe the Bible tells us that this is God's attitude toward sinners—whether "children" of Jabal, of Jubal, or of Satan. Your comment seems to be a denial of this. I am not sure what other reason, in the context of this discussion, you would have for saying it.

I am sorry for any, who have a god is less loving toward His alienated children (remember the Prodigal Son?) than even I am toward mine (I would never wish for even my enemies to be tortured or permanently destroyed, if they could be rescued instead). I am not a very high standard to fall short of. Jesus said that God was "how much more" like an earthly (though evil) father, than like the god that many describe (Matt.7:11).

It was not the righteous (children of God), but the sinners (children of Satan) that Jesus came to recover. He saw them as "the sick." He was not their executioner, but their physician (Matt.9:12-13). Not so the god whose character emerges from some Christian's theology. Not the obedient sheep, but the straying one, is the object of His untiring quest (Luke 15).

I stand by my original quote (to which you were responding):
If a man were to spend so much time waxing eloquent about why he would be justified in killing his disobedient children, I would wonder what kind of father I was listening to! Likewise, if a father affirmed his love for his kidnapped children and said that he would pursue the kidnappers and recover his children—but only until they cross the California border, after which, he would simply give up the chase—I would think this man unworthy to be called a father. Some speak as if God is this kind of father. I find this difficult, and not particularly scriptural.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:07 pm

What father burns and puts children in the LOF until they repent?
What Father destroys all of them in a flood, cuts them to pieces, then promises to burn all of creation with fire? The Father of creation term simply means – He is our Creator, from whom we get our being.

You keep referring to every human as if they are not adults, the affectionate term ‘children’ God uses does not have an application to all humans in all contexts. Otherwise calling God Abba father, and “now I call you sons”, “sons by adoption”, even brothers and sisters etc. lose all their meanings.
The idea that we are all children of God’s creation is not what God spends a lot of time defining (It is generally in the context of ‘creation’). What God does define is the ‘necessity’ for humans to repent, and believe, otherwise death. Obviously God speaks of ‘His own’ as children, I applaud your affectionate feelings about mankind but that is not the affection I read in scripture. God’s love and charity is supposed to create a response in man. But our freewill’s deny some of us the heart to respond, that is just the way it is. God expects us to grow up and make a decision; He clearly makes a distinction between adults and children. I expect my own children to make there own decisions now since they are grown up, and some have not made a decision for Christ, that is they’re decision.
You keep referring to the prodigal son, the prodigal son repented’, there is no indication everyone will repent.
You keep referring to the lost sheep, the lost sheep was a sheep. Not all are sheep. God goes after His own sheep. Sheep are generally ‘already’ His people, and not a reference to just anybody.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Why Fire?

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:12 pm

John: Scripture states the wicked are destroyed and burned, and they are then dead. When do they become alive again?
Steve: I would think the resurrection would be a good guess.
Just because they are standing does not mean they are ‘alive’. Only the righteous are raised to life, the rest are raised to judgment. Just like your Rev. 20:12 verse says: “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God”. Only the righteous are given life. Only those in Christ are made righteous, and only those in Christ have life (everyone else is dead, remain dead, and will die).
John: There is 'nothing' about the unbelieving being made alive again. Dead means dead.
Steve: Wow! I thought only Jehovah's Witnesses held this doctrine. You might wish to consider John 5:28-29 and Rev.20:12-15 before repeating this view anywhere.
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works” (Rev. 20:12)

There are your two resurrections “the dead were judged” and “those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment
And you know scripture well enough to know that Judgment in these contexts means punishment, and that God has 'already' made His judgment (God doesn’t hold court).
(Jehovah’s Witnesses have Judgment day happening after Armagedon on 'Earth', or something, so they never have a post-mortem Judgment Day. They think it’s a good thing or something. They do not have any kind of post-mortem Judgment or Hell)

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