If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

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Paidion
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Paidion » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:29 pm

Homer wrote:
Paidion wrote:The real question is whether it was possible for any one of them truly became a disciple of Christ out of the same self-serving motivation that had previously induced them to make other decisions in their lives.
What do you think of the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 and their "self serving motivations"? Have you noticed the self interest that motivated their actions? Could they have become Christians as they were?
Homer, I have not implied in my quote above that self-serving people cannot become Christians. The operative phrase is "out of the same self-serving motivation". I questioned whether self-serving people could become Christians out of self-serving motivation. I think it takes more than "I'd better become a Christian so that I won't go to hell" to actually become a disciple of Christ. I think many people are self-deceived into thinking they are Christians where self-service is their only motivation. The real Christian was first motivated by recognizing the horror of his sinfulness and who then repented (had a change of heart and mind) and submitted his life to Christ, calling upon His enabling grace to deliver him from sin, and being baptized to clinch his discipleship.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:16 am

I think it takes more than "I'd better become a Christian so that I won't go to hell" to actually become a disciple of Christ.


But then it would be doubly so in the case of the person actually in hell. Their "repentance", if you could call it that, would seem to be totally based on the desire to extricate themselves from the awful state they are in. To have a circumstance where self interest is removed from the equation, why would God not place the condemned in a place of pleasure and then see if they would renounce it for a place with Him? Then they have the same test they had in this life.

steve7150
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve7150 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:23 am

why would God not place the condemned in a place of pleasure and then see if they would renounce it for a place with Him? Then they have the same test they had in this life.

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Homer











Maybe God will for a time and time and a half? We think we know what the LOF is based on gehenna descriptions but we really don't know.

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Paidion
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Paidion » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:17 am

Homer wrote:But then it would be doubly so in the case of the person actually in hell. Their "repentance", if you could call it that, would seem to be totally based on the desire to extricate themselves from the awful state they are in. To have a circumstance where self interest is removed from the equation, why would God not place the condemned in a place of pleasure and then see if they would renounce it for a place with Him? Then they have the same test they had in this life.
Steve7150 wrote:We think we know what the LOF is based on gehenna descriptions but we really don't know.
You are right, Steve. We presume that Hell or "The Lake of Fire" is excruciatingly painful based on Biblical texts as well as descriptions from the middle ages such as "Dante's Inferno", and pictorial descriptions of total agony, etc. But the Fire may be figurative to indicate purification. God may be present (as He is everywhere) and the perfected sons of God may be there to minister to the inhabitants, that is, if Hell even is "there"; it may not be a place, but a state, and the people who will experience Hell may be here on a future earth). Who knows? None but God, and we can trust Him, for He will do what is best for every person.
George MacDonald wrote:Unable to believe in the forgiveness of their Father in heaven, imagining him not at liberty to forgive, or incapable of forgiving forthright; not really believing him God our Saviour, but a God bound, either in his own nature or by a law above him and compulsory upon him, to exact some recompense or satisfaction for sin, a multitude of teaching men have taught their fellows that Jesus came to bear our punishment and save us from hell. They have represented a result as the object of his mission--the said result nowise to be desired by true man save as consequent on the gain of his object. The mission of Jesus was from the same source and with the same object as the punishment of our sins. He came to work along with our punishment. He came to side with it, and set us free from our sins. No man is safe from hell until he is free from his sins; but a man to whom his sins, that is the evil things in him, are a burden, while he may indeed sometimes feel as if he were in hell, will soon have forgotten that ever he had any other hell to think of than that of his sinful condition. For to him his sins are hell; he would go to the other hell to be free of them; free of them, hell itself would be endurable to him. For hell is God's and not the devil's. Hell is on the side of God and man, to free the child of God from the corruption of death. Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him. If hell be needful to save him, hell will blaze, and the worm will writhe and bite, until he takes refuge in the will of the Father. 'Salvation from hell, is salvation as conceived by such to whom hell and not evil is the terror.' But if even for dread of hell a poor soul seek the Father, he will be heard of him in his terror, and, taught of him to seek the immeasurably greater gift, will in the greater receive the less. (The Hope of the Gospel, Chapter 1 — Salvation from Sin) underlining for emphasis is mine—Paidion
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Breckmin
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Breckmin » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:00 am

Homer wrote:But then it would be doubly so in the case of the person actually in hell. Their "repentance", if you could call it that, would seem to be totally based on the desire to extricate themselves from the awful state they are in.
How do you "change your mind" when you are experiencing the brute reality of hell?

It makes no sense.

Then the main motivation to "repent" is to get out of hell....but not until you've paid your dues (?) and
added to the Sacrifice of Jesus...

the whole position is discombobulated (most deceptions are).

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Homer
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:11 am

Last night I was looking through the catechism of the Catholic church and found they have pronounced an anathema on any who teach that the fear of hell is not a proper motivation to become a Catholic. Interesting.

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steve
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:18 am

This adds credibility to the claim that the traditional view of hell is a Roman Catholic device to scare people into compliance. Not too surprising.

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Homer
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:54 pm

This adds credibility to the claim that the traditional view of hell is a Roman Catholic device to scare people into compliance.
But in making this connection we would have to admit that the RCC existed in the 2nd century (which I deny), as some statements by the "fathers" of this early time indicate an obvious belief in the traditional view.

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TheEditor
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by TheEditor » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:32 pm

Greetings,

Whatever one may think of CT Russell, founder of the Watchtower Society, I always found his beliefs on hell and scare religion in general to be refreshing, as can be seen in the following quotes:

“That I thoroughly believed this doctrine, you may know when I tell you that at 17 years of age it was my custom to go out at night to chalk up words of warning in conspicuous places, where working men passing to and fro might see them, that peradventure I might save some from this awful doom. And the while I wondered why God, who is of infinite power, did not blazon forth some words of warning upon the sky or cause angel trumpeters to announce positively and forcefully the doom to which the world in general was, I supposed, hastening. I was an admirer of the great Baptist preacher, Charles Spurgeon, and esteemed him very highly for his honesty and candor which made his sermons so dreadfully hot, believing that he was an exceptionally honest minister, and that others were grossly derelict in not preaching hell strenuously, in proclaiming eternal torment continually. -- Pastor Russell’s Sermons, p. 517

In discussing the lack of success in world conversion, using numbers available to him at the time, Russell drew a "chart" of the degree of unbelief in the world:

"In fact, to every thoughtful observer, one of two things must be apparent: either the church has made a great mistake in supposing that in the present age, and in her present condition, her office has been to convert the world, or else God’s plan has been a miserable failure. Which horn of the dilemma shall we accept? Many have accepted, and many more doubtless will accept, the latter, and swell the ranks of infidelity, either covertly or openly.

"But dark as this picture appears, it is not the darkest picture that fallen humanity presents. The above [chart] represents only the present living generations. When we consider the fact that century after century of the six thousand years past has swept away other vast multitudes, nearly all of whom were enveloped in the same ignorance and sin, how dark is the scene! Viewed from the popular standpoint, it is truly an awful picture. The various creeds of today teach that all of these billions of humanity, ignorant of the only name under heaven by which we must be saved, are on the straight road to everlasting torment; and not only so, but that all of those 116,000,000 Protestants, except the very few saints, are sure of the same fate. No wonder, then, that those who believe such awful things of Jehovah’s plans and purposes should be zealous in forwarding missionary enterprises—the wonder is that they are not frenzied by it. Really to believe thus, and to appreciate such conclusions, would rob life of every pleasure, and shroud in gloom every bright prospect of nature."

CT Russell, The Divine Plan of the Ages.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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