If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

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Homer
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:45 pm

The topic under discussion is whether such a salvation would be genuine. If a person was motivated in part by fear, then they retain enough selfishness that they are arguably not saved. On the other hand, maybe all people invariably retain a finite amount of selfishness, and we are saved only if we succeed in reaching a certain threshold of "how little" selfishness remains.
But why is fear a worse motivation for self interest than another? Consider four real cases:

R.. is a very wealthy businessman. One day he was on a flight and a "Left Behind" book was on his seat. He read it and as he said later "it scared the hell" out of him. He became a Christian.

K.. is an elderly retired man. He determined to become a Christian, as he said, because "he didn't want to miss the bus".

W.... is a man who has struggled from a life long weakness from alcohol that almost destroyed his life. One day a co-worker told him he needed Jesus to escape his problem with the bottle. He has become a devout Christian.

M...... heard of how Jesus died for her sins and was motivated to become a Christian.

All these persons came to Jesus for "sake of self". How is one any better than another?

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Michelle
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Michelle » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:03 pm

The topic under discussion is whether such a salvation would be genuine. If a person was motivated in part by fear, then they retain enough selfishness that they are arguably not saved. On the other hand, maybe all people invariably retain a finite amount of selfishness, and we are saved only if we succeed in reaching a certain threshold of "how little" selfishness remains.
Or maybe all people retain a varying amount of selfishness and are saved in spite of it. Maybe considering how much selfishness I have, you have, or that other guy has is misplaced because Christ already died for those sins. Maybe we can trust that he will complete the good work he began in us so we don't have to constantly monitor our ice cream eating, nor our charitable giving, in an effort to make sure we remain saved, since that is bondage. Maybe it's actually easier to see the fruit of the spirit when you're not caught up in looking at the knotholes in the tree.
Last edited by Michelle on Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

thrombomodulin
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by thrombomodulin » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:44 pm

Michelle,

I share your opinion, and I hope you are right. What you have affirmed, however, does not seem to agree with what Mr. Gregg is teaching.

Peter

steve7150
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve7150 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:58 pm

All these persons came to Jesus for "sake of self". How is one any better than another?
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Homer Posts: 1405Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm









The main thing is that they came to Jesus and the depth of their conviction will play out by how zealously they actually follow him.

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Paidion
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Paidion » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:46 pm

Homer wrote:But why is fear a worse motivation for self interest than another? Consider four real cases:

R.. is a very wealthy businessman. One day he was on a flight and a "Left Behind" book was on his seat. He read it and as he said later "it scared the hell" out of him. He became a Christian.

K.. is an elderly retired man. He determined to become a Christian, as he said, because "he didn't want to miss the bus".

W.... is a man who has struggled from a life long weakness from alcohol that almost destroyed his life. One day a co-worker told him he needed Jesus to escape his problem with the bottle. He has become a devout Christian.

M...... heard of how Jesus died for her sins and was motivated to become a Christian.

All these persons came to Jesus for "sake of self". How is one any better than another?
I doubt that anyone holds the position that any one of these is better than any other.

Would any one of these persons have become a disciple of Christ if he had been told that the requirement had been to "forsake all and follow Christ" as Jesus Himself taught? Would the motivation to be free from his sin have been sufficient to trigger his discipleship? After he "became a Christian" did any one of them even claim that he had become a disciple of Christ? Or did he merely affirm that he was "saved" (from hell fire)?

The real question is whether it was possible for any one of them truly became a disciple of Christ out of the same self-serving motivation that had previously induced them to make other decisions in their lives. Jesus said, "Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:27) Would any one of these persons have been willing to suffer loss of their own desires in order to come after Christ, bearing his personal cross of suffering?

In the same context, Jesus spoke of counting the cost. He wasn't referring to the cost of "losing his soul in hell." He was speaking about whether a person, having begun to follow Christ, was able to assess the personal cost, and thus carry on with discipleship throughout his life. Jesus compared this with building a tower, and calculating whether one had the resources necessary to complete it.
Last edited by Paidion on Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve7150
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve7150 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:57 pm

Would any one of these persons have become a disciple of Christ if he had been told that the requirement had been to "forsake all and follow Christ" as Jesus Himself







Just wondering , Jesus told this to folks who were to follow him during his earthly ministry but this condition was not explained to potential believers in Acts , so why the difference?

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Homer
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:14 pm

Just wondering , Jesus told this to folks who were to follow him during his earthly ministry but this condition was not explained to potential believers in Acts , so why the difference?
Could it be that Jesus wasn't there to be followed anywhere? Some folks imagine that every word spoken to people by Jesus or the Apostles is also spoken to them.
Last edited by Homer on Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Homer
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:20 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:
The real question is whether it was possible for any one of them truly became a disciple of Christ out of the same self-serving motivation that had previously induced them to make other decisions in their lives.
What do you think of the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 and their "self serving motivations"? Have you noticed the self interest that motivated their actions? Could they have become Christians as they were?

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Homer
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:22 pm

Michelle wrote:
Or maybe all people retain a varying amount of selfishness and are saved in spite of it. Maybe considering how much selfishness I have, you have,or that other guy has is misplaced because Christ already died for those sins. Maybe we can trust that he will complete the good work he began in us so we don't have to constantly monitor our ice cream eating, nor our charitable giving, in an effort to make sure we remain saved, since that is bondage. Maybe it's actually easier to see the fruit of the spirit when you're not caught up in looking at the knotholes in the tree.
I agree, well said! :D

steve7150
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve7150 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:18 pm

Just wondering , Jesus told this to folks who were to follow him during his earthly ministry but this condition was not explained to potential believers in Acts , so why the difference?



Could it be that Jesus wasn't there to be followed anywhere? Some folks imagine that every word spoken to people by Jesus or the Apostles is also spoken to them.






Well i think the rule of thumb is that the words spoken by Jesus and the Apostles are for us unless it's clearly meant only for specific folks he is speaking to. However you can still forsake everything and follow him even though he is not physically present, yet the new believers in Acts apparently were not told exactly the same thing although it's possible they where but it's just not recorded.

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