Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

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Paidion
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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:49 am

Yes, it seems that those annihilationists who believe God raises the "unsaved" only to punish them and then annihilate them, hold the same basic view of sin as believers in eternal conscious torment, that is that sinners must receive a penalty because they "deserve" it. They must "pay" for their crimes (which is impossible). The only difference I can see between those annihilationists and eternal tormentists is that the former see the penalty which must be "paid" as having a finite duration, where as the latter see it as never ending.

On the other hand, believers in the ultimate reconciliation of all to God, believe that all must repent (have a change of heart and mind), become regenerated and submissive to the will of God.

There's an earthly analogy to these two positions. Some believe in "retributive justice", that is making criminals suffer for their crimes. This is supposed to give their victims "satisfaction", but if it does, this satisfaction seems to be but a brief period of pleasure in knowing that the offender is suffering. But the restorative justice paradigm is becoming increasingly recognized, where criminals and their living victims meet, and the criminal expresses genuine regrets and does all he can to make restitution to his victim, and where in some cases there is even reconciliation.

One can read good explanations of restorative justice and its practical outworking in Howard Zehr's Changing Lenses: A New Focus for Crime and Justice and also in Paul Redekop's Changing Paradigms.
Last edited by Paidion on Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve7150
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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by steve7150 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:42 pm

Universalists are reading to much into His will, Gods will is that they ‘repent’.[quote][/quote]











Reading to much into God will? You think that's a bad thing JR? Was Jesus concerned about his father's will?

dwilkins
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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by dwilkins » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:06 pm

I can't see how justice can be done without annihilation. It would be unjust for supremely evil people to die in their sleep or from simply a pistol shot to the head. There has to be a mechanism for those people to pay for what they did without slipping quietly out the back door. I'd say God's justice requires it. I can see where Universalism gets past this by saying that everyone was forgiven by the work of Christ. But, that's a theoretical application of the forgiveness. It seems to me that when scripture says that sinful people will not inherit the kingdom of God that this result is precluded. Eternal conscious torment seems like overkill to me.

Doug

steve7150
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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by steve7150 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:59 pm

I can't see how justice can be done without annihilation. It would be unjust for supremely evil people to die in their sleep or from simply a pistol shot to the head. There has to be a mechanism for those people to pay for what they did without slipping quietly out the back door. I'd say God's justice requires it








Annihilation is not necessarily a severe punishment for seriously evil people like a Hitler for example. I think there may be much stronger punishments available
and maybe some kind of combination of things ending up in CU that can satisfy justice and satisfy God's will that everyone s/b saved and come into a knowledge of the truth.

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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:23 am

It would be unjust for God not to fairly punish terrible crimes. Millions of evil people have murdered raped robbed and led a life of crime and evil towards God and others only to die favorable and normal deaths. The wicked prosper exceedingly and abundantly and often go to thier graves without punishment. many even relish in believing that they can sin it up then simply die. Evil people generally do 'not' express a fear of death, it is a historically popular notion.

Note also that the smoke from hell may be a reminder of Gods wrath - forever it will rise up, as a deterrent, why? Well maybe to angels, but at least there is scripture to support it.
Note also that the smoke speaks of Gods forgiveness and sacrifice, the fact that you are observing the smoke and not in it reminds us of what we deserved.

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Paidion
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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:17 pm

dwilkins wrote:I can't see how justice can be done without annihilation. It would be unjust for supremely evil people to die in their sleep or from simply a pistol shot to the head. There has to be a mechanism for those people to pay for what they did without slipping quietly out the back door. I'd say God's justice requires it.
What do you think "justice" is? Punishment?
If you look up the word "justice" in Wiktionary, you find that the #1 definition is:
The state or characteristic of being just or fair.
In the Oxford Dictionaries, the #1 definition is:
The quality of being fair and reasonable.

There is no one more just or fair than God. When God causes someone pain, it is only for the purpose of regeneration, or to help the offender to understand the enormity of his crime. It is never to make the person "pay" for his sin (which is impossible to do anyway). Please read again my signature statement.

You say there has to be a mechanism for [supremely evil people] to pay for what they did. Tell me how anyone can "pay" for what they did? Suppose someone kills your wife. How can they "pay" for this crime? Would a million dollars be sufficient pay? How about a trillion? Or will you be satisfied if the person is given 50 lashes until his back is raw, and is then hung by the neck until dead. None of that will bring your wife back.

You might have a period of temporary pleasure that the man had to suffer where you say, "Good for the S.O.B. He got what he deserved!" But the man can never pay for his crime. He can never bring back your wife. Nothing that happens to him, and nothing he can ever do, will bring you permanent satisfaction.

If someone killed my wife, my greatest desire would for the man to have a genuine repentance (change of heart and mind), submit to the authority of Christ in his life, and thereby be regenerated, become a new creation in Christ. Thereby the evil man who killed my wife would be annihilated. The new man whom he now is would never consider performing such an evil act.

The BIG question for each of us is whether we want to see vengeance wrought upon the evil doer, or whether we want to see him regenerated. Do we want retributive "justice" (or rather retributive punishment) or restorative justice? Our answer clearly indicates where our heart is.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:24 pm

JR wrote:It would be unjust for God not to fairly punish terrible crimes. Millions of evil people have murdered raped robbed and led a life of crime and evil towards God and others only to die favorable and normal deaths. The wicked prosper exceedingly and abundantly and often go to thier graves without punishment. many even relish in believing that they can sin it up then simply die.
JR, what do you think is better? To cause an evil person to suffer for what he did? Or to see that evil person turn to Christ and be regenerated, so that he is a new creation in Christ?

Do you presume that when a wicked person dies without repenting, that his chance for regeneration has ended? If so, what scripture do you have which indicates that death is the cut-off point?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:48 am

Paidion, 'nothing' is ours. When you want something you have to work for it or pay for it, or receive from someone else. Sinners want to sin, when we sin we are getting something we want, the punishment is simply the paying for something we wanted (the sin). Nothing is free, and neither is righteousness free, it was bought, paid for, and given to us by Jesus.

Gods Word is 'full' of examples of 'justice', and penalties for sin, why does 'death' relieve us of what paying what is fair and just?

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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:37 am

Yes, it seems that those annihilationists who believe God raises the "unsaved" only to punish them and then annihilate them, hold the same basic view of sin as believers in eternal conscious torment, that is that sinners must receive a penalty because they "deserve" it (paidion).
Agreed, only i would say we earned it not deserved it.
They must "pay" for their crimes (which is impossible).(paidion)
Jesus paid for our sins, if you trust in this, that's what the Bible says.
The only difference I can see between those annihilationists and eternal tormentists is that the former see the penalty which must be "paid" as having a finite duration, where as the latter see it as never ending. (paidion)
Agreed.
On the other hand, believers in the ultimate reconciliation of all to God, believe that all must repent (have a change of heart and mind), become regenerated and submissive to the will of God. (paidion)
We believe this also, only the Bible does not suggest any postmortem chances, it rather warns heavily of waiting to long.

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Re: Second Death punishment, then annihilation?

Post by Singalphile » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:10 pm

Greetings all,
Yet, the Bible speaks of the wicked being raised, as well as the righteous. So, the questions is, to what purpose?
I think that the Bible tells us that the universal 2nd resurrection is for the purposes of judgment (John 5:28-29 (NASB) *).

And all that we're told about the consequences of this judgment (i.e., decision-making, sentencing) is that one result is life and the other is aionios punishment (Matt 25), death (Rev 20), and destruction (2 Pet 3).

So I think we're told that men will face judgment and we have pretty clear descriptions of the results of this judgment for the the wicked ungodly (hint: it's contrasted with life). Is this a good enough reason for a universal resurrection? I think so. Not only because God seems to think so, but also b/c we consider it good for a person to face a just judge, to know the reasons for his condemnation, and to allow him to plead his case. The day of judgment is described as involving these things. Perhaps the opportunity to accept Jesus' payment will again (or for the first time) be offered before the aionios judgment is made.

(There is the question of whether those who are currently in Hades/Sheol are actually consciously alive, a la the story (real? parable? fable?) of the rich man. I am not sure about that, but if they are, then they are not dead in the fullest sense and that outcome may still await them. In other words, sin would not be dealt with by just leaving them conscious in Hades.)

* Full-preterist views not withstanding.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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