Punishment and the fear of God

Singalphile
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by Singalphile » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:49 pm

Steve wrote:
Yes, there are. Which of them do you think make your point? Instead of just quoting them (I already know them), why don't you exegete them for us and show us that they mean what you are saying.
I haven't yet read a purely exegetical case for UR. Often it's just a list of verses. Steve, which "evangelical", pro-UR book provided the best UR interpretation for verses that can easily fit UR and especially verses that do not? And while I'm asking, which books do you think make the best exegetical case for the other views?
I don't need to be convinced that any of the views is possible or that all the views are within orthodoxy or whatever. I just would like the best unemotional, this is what the the Greek/Hebrew means, Bible based interpretations of the relevant passages.

I'm attempting this sot of thing myself, but just compiling all the relevant passages is slow-going in and of itself. Everything passage about punishment, salvation, judgment, death, life, every passage with aion/aionios/olam, about fire, with Sheol/Hades/Gehenna, about destruction, etc., etc. ... I might just end up copying/pasting the whole Bible.

Thank you.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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steve
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:15 am

I don't know any book that provides as many verses for all three of the views than mine does, but for individual treatments of the three views that provide a lot of scripture, I think I would recommend the following:

Traditional View: Robert Morey "Death and the Afterlife"

Conditionalist: Edward William Fudge "The Fire That Consumes"

Restorationist: Gerry Beauchemin "Hope Beyond Hell."

Singalphile
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by Singalphile » Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:12 am

Yes, I was asking for books that explicitly support one view. That list is perfect. Thank you!
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

Roberto
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by Roberto » Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:17 pm

steve wrote:I don't know any book that provides as many verses for all three of the views than mine does, but for individual treatments of the three views that provide a lot of scripture, I think I would recommend the following:

Traditional View: Robert Morey "Death and the Afterlife"

Conditionalist: Edward William Fudge "The Fire That Consumes"

Restorationist: Gerry Beauchemin "Hope Beyond Hell."
Steve, there is a verse that the trads use to disprove universalism, Rev. 22:11:.
Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
I haven't heard a universalist response that has left me fully convinced, have you?
Thank you,
Robert

steve7150
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve7150 » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:11 pm

teve, there is a verse that the trads use to disprove universalism, Rev. 22:11:.
Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
I haven't heard a universalist response that has left me fully convinced, have you?





I'm not Steve G but i think Rev 22.17 is addressed to the same folks. "And the Spirit and the Bride say , Come and let him who hears say come, and let him that is thirsty come. And whosover will , let him take the water of life freely."

This invitation is not only from the Spirit but also the Bride and sounds to me to be an invitation to everyone not yet part of the Bride class of folks, the folks still in the LOF.

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steve
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:14 pm

Steve, there is a verse that the trads use to disprove universalism, Rev. 22:11:.
Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
I haven't heard a universalist response that has left me fully convinced, have you?
Thank you,
Robert
I don't see those words as being addressed to people who have already been through the final judgment, but to the original readers in their own times. I believe most scholars would share my view that everything after Revelation 22:5 serves as an epilogue to the book, rather than a chronological continuation of its visionary predictions. I take 22:6-21 to be a final appeal to the audience, in light of the visions that have immediately preceded.

I have seen verse 11 as part of the previous verse, which speaks of the immediate fulfillment of the visions just described. I would agree with Mounce (in this but not in his general approach to Revelation) when he wrote: ""from the perspective of the Seer the end is so close that there is no longer time to alter the character and habits of men." This would be a hyperbole, of course, since some might repent, even at the last moment. But the idea would be, People have made their choices, and the judgment (of AD 70) is coming on so quickly that one could hardly expect much alteration in them between now and that time.

It is also possible that this is a sarcastic exhortation to the rebels: "Go ahead, stay as you have always been! See how that works out for you when these judgments come!" There is scriptural precedent for this kind of sarcastic exhortation to the wicked (Deut.32:38; Isa.6:9; 19:12; 41:22; 44:11; 47:13; Jer.2:28; 27:18).

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jriccitelli
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:53 am

The verse you alluded to in Genesis is not about all mankind. It is about the people before the flood. They had become so bad that God had to wipe them out. There is no affirmation that all men are in that condition at all times (Steve pg.8)
'For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. (Matt 24:37-39)
Seems to me that Jesus uses the flood as an example of the end times with no distinction of one set of people being any different than the others. How are humans now different from humans then? Haven’t all sinned, there being no distinction between Jew or Gentile. Where do you have a scripture to support the goodness of man, and his becoming, wiser, purer and less sinful with time?
… David and Solomon tell us men are sinful (no one doubts this)
I picked the verse because it was relative to Paidions question;
So what is the purpose of these "deserving, fair, and just" punishments, JR (Paidion Dec 18)
So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge... 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity… David says; For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me, I think this speaks of the continuing immoral condition of mans heart. David cries out for God to wash him with hyssop and create in him a clean heart. David is aware (as I am) that unless God changes me I will only ‘continue’ to sin. But we must desire God to recreate our heart, it is a choice that God asks us to make.
… and Isaiah describes his own nation in his own times.
Woe to the sinful nation, a people whose guilt is great, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption!... From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness Seems to me Isaiah has no problem echoing the same idea as Moses in Genesis 8:21. The human heart is evil from childhood Paul echoes this in Ephesians; “were by nature children of wrath” (Eph.2:2) Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience (5:6)
For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, 7and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. (Col.3:6)
"Evil men and impostors" become worse and worse. This is the tendency with evil men. Are all men evil men and impostors, according to scripture? (Steve)
Are we not talking about people in hell post-mortem, a large percentage will be the worst of the worst, and in varying degrees ‘all kinds’ of sinners, do liars and adulterers improve or soften the longer they sit in hell? We have nothing that affirms that. Where are 'your' scriptural affirmations that some people get better and better? (Since you mock mine). And what about these evil men, do they start improving post-mortem?

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steve
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:32 pm

If you think these answers you have given make any sense in this discussion, I will leave you to them. I for one, would not be satisfied to hold a view sustained by such careless exegesis.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:38 am

It seems that for you exegeting means wiggle out of the obvious meaning of the text.
Your sense of discernment is still human, and not prone to personal bias, as much as you profess otherwise. You have a developed a slant in your exegesis. Where I see a flow throughout all scripture, one conductor, with each foundational point expounded upon and brought to a definite conclusion. The message, meanings, and principles don’t change, and neither does God change, and that’s the way revelation was intended, clear and relative to all.
God is Holy, Man is sinful, God desires man to repent but men have a freewill to decide and continue in sin, even unto their death, that God has allowed, and assured will happen unless you repent and believe.

You have consumed them, But they refused to take correction. They have made their faces harder than rock; They have refused to repent’


You think, oh brother, I believe the same things! For example we both agree Jeremiahs verse is spoken to those ‘prior’ to a Judgment, and ‘after’ previous punishment, yet there is a principle and declaration by God that some people here are clearly ‘not’ repenting even after knowing they have been punished (consumed) before. You will defend the UR position that these words have no application to the post-mortem, post-judgment realm. I would argue that Gods warning and Judgment on sin doesn’t change simply because you are not in Jerusalem, post-mortem or post-judgment, and i believe that His Word and warnings stand forever. There is no unfamiliarity on my part with the UR position as you rant, it is rather my familiarity with the biblical position on mans sin nature, mans love for sin, and God's affirmation of many a mans love for sin rather than Holiness, something that UR thinking is missing, and unwilling to admit to.

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