Punishment and the fear of God

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jriccitelli
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:16 am

The very use of the word Gehenna as a place of eschatological judgment (regardless which view of it was preferred) was itself a rabbinic tradition. It does not come from scripture, but from intertestamental speculation... (Steve)
Do you not agree that it is 'the Judgment' that 'The valley of slaughter' represents? Does anyone here imagine we should 'not' worry of a similar judgment of our own? We are all sinners too, aren't we?
"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell" (Matt 5:30)
Is it better to go through life with one arm, and then die, than to go through life with two arms and then die?

If both people die why would having one arm be better? Is it not because one dies a sinner and the other dies as a repentant sinner? It makes no sense if Jesus is speaking only of this life, the fear of dying a sinner rather than as a repentant non-sinner seems to be the point. I did not need to read 1Enoch or Jude for that matter, to understand Jesus was warning me of the afterlife. The mere construction of the sentence meant; it is better for me to cut off one hand, than to die under the penalty of sin. I was no different than those whom Jesus was speaking to, I was a sinner also. So is everyone a sinner, so everyone should fear the same condemnation and Judgment, wouldn’t you fear this? Would anyone here think they are less a sinner than the audience Jesus was addressing?

(You keep suggesting the leaven of the Pharisees was associated with thoughts on eschatology, I have never heard of such a thing, and I was wondering if this is something I could read up on elsewhere as everything I have ever known would have led me to believe this was about their hypocrisy and teachings on law keeping)

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Homer
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by Homer » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:43 am

The very use of the word Gehenna as a place of eschatological judgment (regardless which view of it was preferred) was itself a rabbinic tradition. It does not come from scripture, but from intertestamental speculation (originally 1 Enoch). If Jesus put His stamp on this usage, it is the only case I know of where Jesus affirmed that the rabbis had guessed correctly on a subject that was concealed even from Moses and the prophets.
You have made a very fine argument for the "no-hell" universalists. If Gehenna does not refer to hell, and I think we agree hades does not in most cases, what do we have left to establish a hell at all as a place? If you believe there is a hell at all, which I'm sure you do (I think), doesn't that view come from something in the New Testament? And if so, couldn't you argue they got it from Rabbinic tradition just as well as Gehenna?

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve7150 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:59 am

If you believe there is a hell at all, which I'm sure you do (I think), doesn't that view come from something in the New Testament? And if so, couldn't you argue they got it from Rabbinic tradition just as well as Gehenna?

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What does the Lake of Fire sound like to you?

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:06 am

Homer,

I think hell is taught by Jesus in the parable of the tares and the parable of the dragnet (Matt.13). Also the parable of the sheep and the goats refers to aionios punishment, which seems to be eschatological (Matt.25:41, 46). Paul says there will be "eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thess.1:9), and Revelation speaks of the lake of fire (ch.20:10-15).

None of these passages use any of the Greek terms traditionally translated as "hell." Therefore I suspect that no word for "hell" (like no word for "incarnation") is to be found in scripture, but the concept of a horrendous eschatological fate for unrepentant rebels against God is there.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:21 am

JR,
Do you not agree that it is 'the Judgment' that 'The valley of slaughter' represents? Does anyone here imagine we should 'not' worry of a similar judgment of our own? We are all sinners too, aren't we?
Our subject here (the meaning of Gehenna) is not directly relevant to that of any similar judgments that may come upon sinners other than Jesus' audience (since only they were threatened with Gehenna). As far as we know, neither Jesus, nor any biblical writer, ever suggested that anyone but Palestinian Jews would be in danger, specifically, of Gehenna. That all sinners are subject to judgment someday is clearly taught elsewhere, but is irrelevant to deciding what Gehenna means in the passages that use the term.
Is it better to go through life with one arm, and then die, than to go through life with two arms and then die?
This has been discussed elsewhere more than once. I will not waste keystrokes repeating what you apparently did not read or remember from previous times your question was answered (what confidence can I have that you will read, understand or remember my statements here, if you did not give attention to them before?). What I can say, briefly, is that there is a great deal of advantage in dying in a righteous state, with only one arm, over the prospect of dying under God's judgment with two. I think Jesus counted on His listeners recognizing this. If any did not, His point would probably be lost on them—as it is on some today.
(You keep suggesting the leaven of the Pharisees was associated with thoughts on eschatology, I have never heard of such a thing, and I was wondering if this is something I could read up on elsewhere as everything I have ever known would have led me to believe this was about their hypocrisy and teachings on law keeping)
Jesus showed no respect for any doctrine that originated from rabbinic speculation merely. To beware of the doctrine of the scribes and Pharisees is a sweeping statement. The Jews heard two kinds of teaching. There were teachings that came from the canonical Law and the Prophets, and there were those that came from the rabbis, but which had no scriptural authority behind them. Jesus was warning against the latter. The association of Gehenna with eschatological judgment belongs to the second category.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by Candlepower » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:53 pm

Homer wrote:
The KJV correctly translated hades as Hell.
backwoodsman wrote:Yes, I suppose it did. The question, of course, is what did 'hell' mean in 1611?
I respectfully disagree with both of you, but I appreciate your insightful question, backwoodsman. Here's why I disagree:

The murdering tyrant, Henry the VIII, wanted to divorce his wife (not for scriptural reasons), but the Pope wouldn’t sanction the king’s sinful request. To get his way, Henry hijacked the Church of England in 1534 and made it his personal religious stamp-of-approval for anything he wanted to do. Heathen Henry’s church, of course, did bless his unscriptural divorce (calling it an annulment). By decree, Henry had successfully replaced one corrupt religious organization with one even more corrupt—one that declared Henry, not Christ, as its head.

Seventy-seven years later, Henry’s church published the King James Version of the Bible, so it’s no wonder that it bears some Anglican stains. Despite those few stains, the KJV (by God’s grace) is an excellent translation. But there are some problems.

One of the KJV’s Anglican errors is its use of the word hell, with which the translators replaced the Hebrew word Sheol (OT) and the Greek word Hades (NT). Sheol means “the place of the dead” or “the grave.” Hades means the same thing. Neither Sheol nor Hades connotes a place of eternal fiery punishment of the wicked. All that those two words actually mean is the undifferentiated place of the dead, or the grave. Everybody goes there. If Sheol and Hades actually did accurately translate into the word Hell, then one would correctly conclude that everyone goes to Hell.

But the fact is that Hell does not mean what Sheol and Hades mean, so the KJV scholars and divines did not correctly translate Hades as hell, Homer. Here is a history of the word Hell:

"Hell comes to us directly from Old English hel. Because the Roman Church prevailed in England from an early date, the Roman—that is, Mediterranean—belief that hell was hot prevailed there too; in Old English hel is a black and fiery place of eternal torment for the damned. But because the Vikings were converted to Christianity centuries after the Anglo-Saxons, the Old Norse hel, from the same source as Old English hel, retained its earlier pagan senses as both a place and a person. As a place, hel is the abode of oath breakers, other evil persons, and those unlucky enough not to have died in battle. It contrasts sharply with Valhalla, the hall of slain heroes. Unlike the Mediterranean hell, the Old Norse hel is very cold. Hel is also the name of the goddess or giantess who presides in hel, the half blue-black, half white daughter of Loki and the giantess Angrbotha. The Indo-European root behind these Germanic words is kel-, "to cover, conceal" (so hell is the "concealed place"); it also gives us hall, hole, hollow, and helmet." (from The Free Dictionary)

And here’s Plato’s concept of that same mythological place:

“Of those who have done extreme wrong and, as a result of such crimes, have become incurable, of those are the examples made; no longer are they profited at all themselves, since they are incurable, but others are profited who behold them undergoing for their transgressions the greatest, sharpest, and most fearful sufferings evermore, actually hung up as examples there in the infernal dungeon, a spectacle and a lesson to such of the wrongdoers as arrive from time to time.” —Plato, Gorgias (380 B.C.E.)

So, while Plato and the Jews had some folks roasting in a dungeon, the Vikings had them shivering in a hidden freezer. Neither Sheol nor Hades speak of such scenarios. The fantasies of Plato, the rabbis, the Vikings, and the Reformers don't match what Scripture actually says.

The rabbinic speculations about Sheol/Hades (which they learned from pagan religions) became part of the complex collection of Jewish traditions that Jesus denounced. Those Jewish/pagan traditions were embraced by the Roman Catholics, and continued by the Reformers. And those Jewish/Romanist/Anglican concepts (as well as Norse mythology) were part of the mindset of the Anglican translators in 1604-1611. They should have left Sheol/Hades untranslated, or they should have used the actual meaning of those words, which is “the place of the dead” or “the grave.” But they didn’t, and that was a big mistake that has caused immeasurable confusion concerning the afterlife. The answer to backwoodsman's question may be that the Reformers chose “Hell” because it best represented their Old English/ Norse conception of the afterlife and their misunderstanding of words Sheol and Hades. Hell may be a good translation for Pagan mythology about the afterlife, but it fails as a translation for Sheol, Hades, Gehenna or Tartarus.

Satan has been spewing a flood of lies at the Church for 2,000 years (Rev. 12:15), and I think the pagan doctrine of hell is one of them. Tradition has left us a mess. We can either stay comfortably stuck in it, or we can exegete our way out. I am very thankful for Steve Gregg’s new book about hell. It is a powerful corrective to the pagan traditions of hell, and I hope it will help millions of Christians climb up out of that mess.

My years of being brainwashed by tradition have made it impossible for me not to picture eternal fiery torment when I see the word Hell. So, whenever I see that word in my NKJV, I mentally cross it out and replace it with the correct word (Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, or Tartarus). I might even get a black permanent marker and redact the Hell out of my Bible. :o

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by john6809 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:17 pm

I might even get a black permanent marker and redact the Hell out of my Bible. :o
:D :D :D
"My memory is nearly gone; but I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior." - John Newton

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:25 pm

While I agree with you, Candlepower, that 'Sheol means “the place of the dead” or “the grave.” Hades means the same thing,' I agree also with Homer, that the AV correctly translates the word as "hell". For the word "hell" meant "a hidden place", and that is just what “the place of the dead” or “the grave” is. It used to be said that lovers sought a hell (to be hidden away from the world.)

Although today we hear of gardeners "hilling" potatoes, this was a mistaken alteration of the earlier "helling potatoes". To hell potatoes is to cover the plants with earth so that the potatoes are covered (hidden) from the sun to prevent them from greening. If they green, they are not fit to eat, having a bitter taste, and also being mildly poisonous.

Etymology of the word "hell":
From Middle English helle, from Old English hel, hell, helle (“nether world, abode of the dead, hell”), from Proto-Germanic *haljō (“nether world, concealed place”), from Proto-Indo-European *kel- (“to cover, conceal, save”). Cognate Dutch hel (“hell”), German Hölle (“hell”), Swedish helvete (“hell”), Icelandic hel (“the abode of the dead, death”). Also related to the Hel of Germanic mythology. — from Wiktionary.
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by Homer » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:26 pm

Candlepower,
Your explanation just doesn't make sense to me regarding Luke 10:15. The passage is about those Jesus sent out with the Gospel message and the results, good or bad, in regard to the judgment:

Luke 10:8-15, NASB
8. Whatever city you enter and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9. and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10. But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11. ‘Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet [f]be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12. I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city.

13. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you. 15. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!


What hell meant in King James day is irrelevant, IMO, to a determination of what Jesus said. I see Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, as metonyms for people who reject the Gospel message. They are contrasted with those who receive it gladly, for whom heaven awaits. Those who reject the message will not be exalted to heaven, but will go into Hades. It can hardly refer to going to their graves, which is the fate of all who die before Jesus returns. They have been there, done that.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:11 am

That all sinners are subject to judgment someday is clearly taught elsewhere, but is irrelevant to deciding what Gehenna means in the passages that use the term (Steve)
How can you read of 'any' judgment on sin by God, and suppose the same may not also warn you?
I suppose those threatened with Gehenna are a unique bunch of sinners, but what about those in Sodom, Tyre, Sidon, and Capernaum? Do we observe these judgments and say to ourselves well that was unfortunate, and think nothing of it? What are we to think then, since most all judgments and biblical accounts are situated in some time and specific place of long ago?
Does Adams sin and judgment not warn us of the consequences? Does Ananias and Sapphira not warn us of the consequences? Doesn’t scripture remind us often to the effect that if you do the same you too will likewise perish? Does Abraham's faith not remind us of the blessings?
I will not waste keystrokes repeating what you apparently did not read or remember from previous times your question was answered (Steve)
First of all I had posted the following statement (below), and then deleted it. First of all I knew you would answer this way, but since I felt it was not really a good answer to my argument, and that I felt it was making the post too long, and since you have a problem following my detailed posts, I deleted it in order to shorten it. (‘Especially’ since you had requested that I keep my posts briefer) But now that I know that you need exhaustive answers to everything I will repeat; ‘I know you suggest that dying under the wrath of God would bring remorse, and I remember you then saying it was not remorse but lack of a good namesake or something to that effect’
What I can say, briefly, is that there is a great deal of advantage in dying in a righteous state, with only one arm, over the prospect of dying under God's judgment with two. I think Jesus counted on His listeners recognizing this. If any did not, His point would probably be lost on them—as it is on some today (Steve)
His point would probably be lost on some today? In your theology why would it even matter to anyone today? You just said;
As far as we know, neither Jesus, nor any biblical writer, ever suggested that anyone but Palestinian Jews would be in danger, specifically, of Gehenna (Steve)

You just said it did not apply. I said it would apply; I do not want to die under the wrath of God. It would be better for me to lose one arm than to die under the wrath of God, there does not have to be a physical location to fear, just the fear of the judgment. You suggest there is a ‘great deal of advantage’ in dying in a righteous state, and I would suppose a great disadvantage to dying in an unrighteous state. I don't see scripture breaking down post-mortem warnings into advantage and disadvantage, It seems scripture warns of life or death and nothing else. You will refer again to your argument for advantaged 'Christians' which inhabit the City, and the disadvantaged that inhabit the realm outside the walls of the New city but that does not seem to fit with the warnings of horror presented in scripture. I was actually wondering if I would see a response to this point under the 'hell book complete' thread.
Thank you and God bless you.

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