Punishment and the fear of God

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jriccitelli
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Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:56 am

Steve, I thought you would catch the connection between ‘the fear of God’ and ‘punishment’
(from under the 'Hell book complete' thread pg 6).
The entirety of your post read:
Thanks for sharing, Brother. My conclusion is tentative. I believe that the traditional view has the least exegetical support of all the options. Which of the alternatives may prove true will be known when the Lord comes (or sooner, perhaps, by people more intelligent than myself). My conviction is that the exact manner in which God resolves the problem of sin need not be known by any of us in this life, but that whatever it turns out to be will have to be agreeable with God's character (Steve under the 'Hell book complete' thread pg 3).
My foremost objection was with your words that we might not know the answer “…until the Lord comes”
Fearing God is a predominate theme of biblical salvation and I thought you would see the connection between 'the fear of God' and 'hell'. My first thought was ‘to fear Him’ was (and still is) Gods resolution to the problem of sin – it is a major theme from Genesis to Revelation – and it means nothing other than punishment and destruction, and completely synonymous with hell.

It seemed odd for you to say that how "God resolves the problem of sin need not be known by any of us” when my immediate thought came up with:

‘Thou hast rebuked the nations, thou hast destroyed the wicked; Thou hast blotted
out ... words to the nations, you have sent destruction on the sinners, you have ...’ (Psalm 9:5)

‘But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked. ... Sinners will be destroyed together; the future of the wicked will be cut off. ...’ (Psalm 37:38)

‘But sinners will be cut off from the land, and those whose acts are false ... But the
wicked shall be destroyed from the earth: and they that do unjustly shall be ...’ (Proverbs 2:22

‘But both rebels and sinners will be destroyed, and those who abandon the LORD will perish. ...’ (Isaiah 1:28)

‘The land will be made desolate, and all the sinners destroyed with it’ (Isa.13:9)


Seems clear to many (and many millions) how God will resolve the problem with sin and sinners, it is this truth we must believe, and be forewarned.

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steve
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:42 am

I stand by my statement. Your post has added nothing to the argument—just more verses of the same type that we have already discussed. As I said before, if you can show me exegetically that these verses talk about the final disposition of the lost after the final judgment (and not merely physical death), then I will have to be impressed with the strength of your case.

In any case, I don't see why this required a separate thread on the fear of God. Why would "the fear of God" require that "the exact manner in which God resolves the problem of sin" must be known in this life? If I believed in the traditional view, I could have the fear of God. Likewise if I held the conditionalist view. I could also have the fear of God if I embraced the restorationist view. Thus, an exact knowledge of which view is correct is not a necessary precondition for living in the fear of God.

A child whose father still believes in discipline will fear his father's displeasure, even if he does not know exactly what form of discipline his father might employ in a given instance. The prospect of any parental punishment can provide a deterrent to a child's misbehavior, even though most children are pretty sure that the discipline will not involve annihilation. The same is true of most criminal penalties.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:28 am

I am glad you fear God also. What verses in particular then make ‘you’ fear God?

Are there any verses you consider are describing what 'postmortem' Hell is like?

Wouldn’t it be at least abit more comforting to believe you could sin your life away and just repent post-mortem? Thus the fear of God (and hell) is neutered abit isn’t it? Doesn’t the Bible express that this life is some kind of test, we must choose, and that without ‘faith’ it is impossible to please God?

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:50 am

I am glad you fear God also. What verses in particular then make ‘you’ fear God?
All of them.
Are there any verses you consider are describing what 'postmortem' Hell is like?
Weeping and gnashing of teeth are mentioned.
Wouldn’t it be at least abit more comforting to believe you could sin your life away and just repent post-mortem?
If I loved God, why would I want to sin? Have you found comfort in sinning? I haven't. Only "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Thus the fear of God (and hell) is neutered abit isn’t it?
This is precisely what traditionalists say about your conditionalism. Is it valid when they say it? If not, how would it be more valid when you say it?
Doesn’t the Bible express that this life is some kind of test, we must choose, and that without ‘faith’ it is impossible to please God?
Yes it does.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jeremiah » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:19 pm

Hello John,
Doesn’t the Bible express that this life is some kind of test, we must choose, and that without ‘faith’ it is impossible to please God?
I don't believe it expresses that. I think this is a vague mantra which needs to be reexamined. In my opinion the notion wrongly assumes ** innate immortality of humans whether pre-fall or otherwise (and maybe some "ghost in the machine" ideas as well but i'm not sure if it's a necessary correlate) and proceeds to far 'over major' into strict governing of "eternity" over too many categories of life and it's purpose. Thereby underestimating space, time, and matter, whether our existence within these now, and our future existence within redeemed space, redeemed time, and redeemed matter.

I wouldn't say we can't find pieces to assemble such an idea, I only think the pieces are misplaced and wrongly applied to form something the writers of scripture wouldn't go fist to cuffs over, but I doubt they would put much weight in it.

**among other things.
grace and peace to you man.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:07 am

Weeping and gnashing of teeth are mentioned.
Weeping and gnashing of teeth are mentioned in stories that have very terrestrial contexts, doesn’t this bother you to apply it to a postmortem situation? Is it the weeping and crying that would worry you, or the being cut to pieces part?
If I loved God, why would I want to sin? Have you found comfort in sinning? I haven't. Only "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
I thought it would be obvious I 'was' speaking of ‘unbelievers’. But still the warnings are given to all - believers and nonbelievers. We are all warned and hopefully deterred by the promise of punishment in hell and the danger of ‘not’ having a ‘second chance’. If someone really believed they would get a second chance wouldn’t that motivate them to delay a decision and put off living a godly life – YES – people really believe this, and live accordingly.

I do not live in a world of Christians, I live among and alongside many working men (and some who wont work). They reveal to me the secrets of their lives and it’s ‘not’ good. Good men who love sin, and despise what is good, yet are good often enough. They hate Christianity from time to time, go to church occasionally, go to strip clubs and prostitutes regularly, some know Jesus, some lie and cheat regularly and most all live as hypocrites (I live among a people of unclean lips). The only advice I can give sometimes is; I am not judgmental, but be warned - God is (yes they believe God is loving, that is why they needn’t worry).

I do not like the innuendo that I find comfort in sinning, but if you put it that way, yes it is human to sin, as much as it is misguided to think sin is ‘not’ enjoyable and tempting. As for me, God’s Love and truth compel me to be faithful and honest, but it is a maturing process and mind over matter decision that keeps me on the path.
This is precisely what traditionalists say about your conditionalism. Is it valid when they say it? If not, how would it be more valid when you say it?
Lets see: you have a person being punished on death row, another being punished in prison for eternity, and another with a get out jail free card. Which one would you want to be?
Yes it does.
The point was: how can faith or a test be demonstrated postmortem, or in hell?

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:22 am

Jeremiah there are foundational monuments in the Bible, the Garden of Eden, the giving of the Law, Abraham when he went to offer Isaac, are three of them, don’t you think the tree in the garden was a test, what was it if it was not?
Before giving the Law Moses said:
"Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." 21 So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was" (Exodus 20:20)
By faith, Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had gladly received the promises was offering up his one and only son; (Heb 11:17)

For to this end also I have written, that I might know, by putting you to the test, if as to everything ye are obedient. (2Cor 2:9, 8:8, 9:3, 13:5, 1Tim 3:10, )
For having been put to the test himself, he is able to give help to others when they are tested. (Heb 2:18)
Blessed is he who patiently endures trials; for when he has stood the test, he will gain the victor's crown--even the crown of Life--which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (James 1:12)
Beloved, don't be astonished at the fiery trial which has come upon you, to test you, as though a strange thing happened to you. (1Pet 4:12)
And keep in mind the way by which the Lord your God has taken you through the waste land these forty years, so that he might make low your pride and put you to the test, to see what was in your heart and if you would keep his orders or not. (Duet 8:2)
Who gave you manna for your food in the waste land, a food which your fathers had never seen; so that your pride might be broken and your hearts tested for your good in the end; (Duet 8:16)

Many more could be found, this life is a test, we are commanded to believe, to choose, and demonstrate faith.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:06 am

JR,

I would respond to your last post to me, if I understood the relevance of any of the things you wrote there. Some of the statements there might make sense as stand-alone statements, with which no one would disagree. However, in the context of our discussion of postmortem fates, and of my statements to which you are ostensibly responding, I am at a loss to make sense of your comments, or to see their relevance. Forgive me, if I am being dull.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve7150 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:23 am

Lets see: you have a person being punished on death row, another being punished in prison for eternity, and another with a get out jail free card. Which one would you want to be?








Where do we find the lake of fire has a get out of jail free card? Frankly i think folks who either hate God or are simply indifferent would not be to upset over annihilation.
I think whatever punishment may await the unbeliever in the LOF prior to either annihilation or a process of restoration would be just because God is just. What may happen after that will be mostly a matter of God's will IMO.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:37 pm

I forgive you. There is no ostensibly on my part, as you must know that I am trying to get you to cough up any verse that describes postmortem hell 'because' many have Old Testament roots. It has been really hard to determine how much your full or partial Preterism plays into ‘your’ argument for UR.
I will pretend to know nothing of UR and ask you then; does UR accept any or most OT verses describing destruction, cutting up, burning, ruin and blotting out as only describing temporal events pre-NT times or do they accept these as descriptions of post Judgment punishments?

I was wondering how ‘you’ determine Jesus is talking post mortem (or post AD70) on a verse such as these that contain something such as weeping and gnashing of teeth, when Jesus uses this same phrase in conjuncture with parables concerning the tares and being thrown into fire, which previously I heard you determine that the fire was temporal (Gehenna) or AD70 when you used Preterism to support your argument for UR, for which you show no sign of ‘tentative’ thinking.

God does make a lot of stand alone statements, just as many of the UR doctrines use bible verses as stand alone statements also, i.e. the ‘all’ verses, and Peters reference to “not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance”. The difference is that I feel CI absorbs all the stand alone verses and the whole context of scripture, and is yet compatible with ‘all’ of the scriptures and all of the doctrines and adjustments made ‘within’ scripture without searching for foundations in a world unknown by scripture, and purported to exist either in hell or somewhere between death and or in the LOF (where?). This realm of decision repentance and opportunity reported to exist in hell or prior is not mentioned in scripture; where death, the resurrection, the second coming, the Judgment, the casting in, the opening of scrolls, the reading of the books, the marriage supper and other events, places and their goings on are all written of.

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