Punishment and the fear of God

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jriccitelli
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:46 am

How can one eternal punishment be any greater or lesser than another? They are both eternal? Or are you talking about some temporary punishment before annihilation? (Paidion)
Yep I was talking about temporary punishment before annihilation. You and I have a differing opinions about punishment and the Law, but I think fairness means a Judge cannot let a sin (breaking the law) go unpunished, He must uphold the Law. Without a punishment there is no law. Whatever the law demands, everyone is to judged fairly by the same law, even if they are annihilated after. The wicked are paying their debt, and this all sets a precedence for anyone in the futures opinion about Go keeping his Word in relation to the Judgment on sin. There is a school of thought that thinks this world and age will be a lesson to Angels and not just humans.
(I just noticed you used the word temporary. I do not mean on earth (only), I mean punishment for our sins (including) post-mortem, post judgment. Although i believe God chooses to overlook alot of sins, not all sins are overlooked as He does in the OT and Law. The sin of rebellion and unbelief for instance seem to be what Gentiles are guilty of, so i do not believe God punishes extensively every little sin, although greater sins adultry, murder, false prophets, receive punishment for sure...)
Last edited by jriccitelli on Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:02 am

… considering the fact His will is that none should perish. Do you think God's will carries any weight? (7150)
“He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent…” this thought has to be synchronized with the definitions and precepts throughout. God’s will consists of a variety of desires:
God is looking for - Faith – Trust - Obedience – Love – Fruit – etc.
God is looking for those who - Seek Him – Fear him – Honor Him – Follow Him
So, a post- mortem belief would render the above ‘desires of God’ unfulfilled (that’s right - desires) with those who repent post-mortem. Why does God go through such trouble, and focus so much time and scripture on these values and prerequisites? He must have a good reason, so what is that reason? Ans. ‘Because this world is a test’
(Me, ‘Visiting the iniquity of the fathers…’ thread Sun. Jan27th)
... Also what about God's mercy, does that matter? (7150)
God has mercy on those who repent. Mercy is not promised to the unrepentant. And God's unfailing compassion and 'everlasting' love still is generally reserved and applied for you once you repent, and in NT era believe and accept are prerequisites to Gods application of Mercy to Gentiles. God has a general mercy, love and compassion on all pre-salvation, but it is not a relationship, or one with promises, and generally attached to His patience and plan to have a relationship 'future' with His creation, that is two way. Culminating in a love that is 'in His beloved Son' through faith and in His sacrifice. And nothing less.
Remember the poor teen age girl in Africa who helped her neighbors kids because they were needy. (7150 pg.7)
Most all people who do not know Christ are expecting a works based salvation, as in most all other religions. There is no respect to persons, so the girl stands a good chance of being at least in favor with God, as God does look upon the righteous with favor. Those who out right reject Christ or hate God are a different group, I suspect. God is fully compassionate and his love endures forever, yet in the same contexts God demands repentance and sentences the rebellious to death. Gods will and mercy are in the context of everything else He has revealed about us, and Himself.

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Paidion
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:41 pm

As I ‘have’ said, I believe the Bible speaks of deserving, fair, and just punishment, meaning that sins will be punished each according to their degrees.
So what is the purpose of these "deserving, fair, and just" punishments, JR? Just to make the offenders suffer? Give the S.O.B.'s what they deserve?

The God of the Bible has a magnificent purpose in punishing. The same purpose a loving, human father has. A loving, human father punishes his children in order to correct them—that they may become better people—that their characters might improve. The loving heavenly Father punishes for the same purpose.
The writer to the Hebrews wrote:And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. (Hebrews 12:5-10)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:28 am

You have a positive hope that all men would see the beauty and magnificence of God, I would like to believe that, but scripture notes that every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. Man is portrayed as growing worse and worse, scripture does not give much hope for man getting better and wiser. Sinners grow more treacherous, and this seems to ring true with what I also observe amongst men in this life.

You are referring to verses that speak of believers. The analogy of a loving Father would be fine, but I think God has created people to grow into rational thinking adults, and capable of making a decision.
Plus you have no evidence that God is going to recreate this whole place of testing, faith and belief all over again. And your still stuck with making sense of God killing sinners, putting a limit on mans earthly life, speaking of a scenario that wraps up in a Judgment Day and a wedding, and a new heaven where in dwells righteousness and light, not darkness.
What do you make of the following verses?
Righteous are You, O LORD, that I would plead my case with You; Indeed I would discuss matters of justice with You: Why has the way of the wicked prospered? Why are all those who deal in treachery at ease? 2 You have planted them, they have also taken root; They grow, they have even produced fruit. You are near to their lips But far from their mind 3 But You know me, O LORD; You see me; And You examine my heart's attitude toward You. Drag them off like sheep for the slaughter And set them apart for a day of carnage! 4 How long is the land to mourn And the vegetation of the countryside to wither? For the wickedness of those who dwell in it, Animals and birds have been snatched away, Because men have said, "He will not see our latter ending." (Jeremiah 12:1-4)

‘Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth. 18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake 19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently’ … 21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth. 22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders'
(Isaiah 24:17-23)

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steve
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:29 pm

...scripture notes that every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. Man is portrayed as growing worse and worse...
Does the Bible actually teach these things?

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Paidion
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by Paidion » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:15 pm

Steve wrote:
JR wrote:...scripture notes that every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.
Does the Bible actually teach these things?
I know of no Scripture teaching this. This is Calvinist thinking, isn't it?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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steve
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:26 pm

Yes.

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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:11 am

No.
‘I know of no Scripture teaching this. This is Calvinist thinking, isn't it?’
Extreme Calvinists have taken all these verses to mean that man can do ‘no’ good at all, I believe this thinking is ignorant and blind. Never the less man is 'very deeply' depraved according to scripture, yet capable also of great good.
Does the Bible actually teach these things? (Steve)
What is your point (?), the verse comes from Genesis:

“Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood’ (Genesis 8:21 NIV) The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. (Genesis 6:5 NIV)

For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.4 Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
(Psalm 51:5)
‘Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins. 25 … So I turned my mind to understand, to investigate and to search out wisdom and the scheme of things and to understand the stupidity of wickedness and the madness of folly… 29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright but they have gone in search of many schemes” (Eccl. 7:20-29, Romans 3)
Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness

only wounds and welts
and open sores…
(Isaiah 1)

Steve, what are you getting at? You know there are thousands of verses like this. We have a world of history that’s proves man waxes worse, even many believing Christians(?) wax worse. The bible says things will get worse;

‘But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived’ (2 Tim 3:13, 2:16)
They also refuse to repent:
‘LORD, do not Your eyes look for truth? You have smitten them, But they did not weaken; You have consumed them, But they refused to take correction. They have made their faces harder than rock; They have refused to repent(Jeremiah 5:3)
... while tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even when you saw this happening,
you refused to believe him and repent of your sins. ...
(Matt 21:32)
'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. (Rev. 2:21)
The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold’ (Rev. 9:20)
‘The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire. 9 Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory’
(Rev 16:8)
(please don't grieve me about posting bible verses)

What do these verses tell us? Anything? Nothing?
What is UR telling us?
Last edited by jriccitelli on Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:19 am

I'm glad JR replied, with scripture, to rebut the claims against his statements. I don't know how in the world you guys didn't know or forgot about these foundational principles regarding the conversation.

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steve
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Re: Punishment and the fear of God

Post by steve » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:05 am

Steve, what are you getting at? You know there are thousands of verses like this.


Yes, there are. Which of them do you think make your point? Instead of just quoting them (I already know them), why don't you exegete them for us and show us that they mean what you are saying.

The verse you alluded to in Genesis is not about all mankind. It is about the people before the flood. They had become so bad that God had to wipe them out. There is no affirmation that all men are in that condition at all times. David and Solomon tell us men are sinful (no one doubts this), and Isaiah describes his own nation in his own times. Where are the scriptural affirmations of your thesis?

"Evil men and impostors" become worse and worse. This is the tendency with evil men. Are all men evil men and impostors, according to scripture?

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