Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

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jaydam
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Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by jaydam » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:09 pm

A kid grows up in a Muslim nation, never gets evangelized for Christianity, has a desire for the truth, is raised under an imam who presents Islam as truth, the now young man shows more zeal for what he has been misled to be truth than many Christians, and I (who spent 10+ years in the infantry) go over to his country and end his life as he is fighting for what he has been told is truth.

Does the God you know truly send this zealous young man (who's desire for the truth was hijacked by an imam) to eternal suffering?

Further questions:

Would you tell me that every time I might be put in a situation to pull the trigger on a person zealous for truth, but misled, I am sending them to an eternity of pain?

How could you ever convince me to then go out and defend myself or my nation if my act of doing so sends people who truly want the truth to eternal hell?

Could I, exuding Christ's love he has shown me, ever do anything beyond simply letting myself get killed (since I am confident in where I am going) giving my killer/enemy as much lifetime as possible to escape eternal hell out of the same love Christ had to let himself get killed so I could escape it?

If you believe in eternal hell, when is self-defensive killing ever justified then?

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Paidion
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Re: Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:57 pm

I know you can't necessarily get truth from a novelist, but in the Narnian Chronicles by Clive Staples Lewis, one Calormene man faithfully serves his god Tash. However, after death, he ends up in Aslan's Country. Aslan tells him (I'm saying all this from memory), "Son, all the service that you rendered to the false god Tash, I count as service to Me."

Take that as you will.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by Homer » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:55 pm

Why should those who believe in eternal hell need to answer this anymore than the universalist who imagines people will spend a thousand years or so being reformed in the flames of hell?

Seems to me the answer would be the same regarding the poor Canaanite teenager who was slaughtered by Joshua's army, as commanded by God.

I have no doubt that God is just and will do what is right.

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Paidion
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Re: Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:28 pm

Seems to me the answer would be the same regarding the poor Canaanite teenager who was slaughtered by Joshua's army, as commanded by God.

I have no doubt that God is just and will do what is right.
It must take a lot of mental contortions to believe that what is immoral by any normal human standards, is "just" and "right" if God (supposedly) does it.


C.S. Lewis in a letter to Beversluis wrote:Yes. On my view one must apply something of the same sort of explanation to, say, the atrocities (and treacheries) of Joshua. I see the grave danger we run by doing so; but the dangers of believing in a God whom we cannot but regard as evil, and then, in mere terrified flattery calling Him 'good' and worshiping Him, is still greater danger. The ultimate question is whether the doctrine of the goodness of God or that of the inerrancy of Scriptures is to prevail when they conflict. I think the doctrine of the goodness of God is the more certain of the two. Indeed, only that doctrine renders this worship of Him obligatory or even permissible.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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jaydam
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Re: Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by jaydam » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:54 pm

Homer wrote:Why should those who believe in eternal hell need to answer this anymore than the universalist who imagines people will spend a thousand years or so being reformed in the flames of hell?
Because this is one of the things I struggled with for years before becoming a Christian. I didn't post this in hope of a right or wrong answer, I have just been impressed by the thoughts of people in this forum so I was curious how the people here would answer.

Personally, I do not/cannot believe in the traditional view of hell as an eternal place one goes to if they do not find God in this life.

At the least, I wonder if Christ/God meets them on the other side of death here on earth and reveals himself as truth. If the heart of the person was truly to seek truth, then perhaps when they are presented before God they accept him then. If their heart was not truly seeking after truth, then perhaps it goes much the way of Pharaoh and as God makes himself more known their heart becomes harder and they refuse him even before his face to then be sent to eternal hell after they refuse him on the other side of physical death.

I have no scriptural evidence for that, but I have wondered if that is the least God does.

What I do believe I have evidence of is that the traditional view of hell is not as certain as church tried to scare me it was to get me to repent, and adding my experience of who God is to the mix I would consider that either a person is presented with the opportunity to choose truth one last time after physical death and before they go to eternal hell, or I believe in either annihilationism or universalism.

I am still working on studying it out, and reading Steve's book.

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Homer
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Re: Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by Homer » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:07 pm

I do not/cannot believe in the traditional view of hell as an eternal place one goes to if they do not find God in this life.
But in a sense the argument is made against a strawman. Before I considered annihilation as an alternative view that could be supported by scripture, I held to the eternal punishment view but I did not believe that this punishment was in literal flames. I saw it as an eternal separation from God. This world, as it is, is not separated from God's presence, influence, and superintendence. I believe that nothing happens apart from God allowing it to happen. His eye is on the lowly sparrow; He always has a veto over every event. So a total separation would be a hell indeed.

There are a great many Christian thinkers who hold a view similar to the one described. After all, "outer darkness" does not seem to be a place of flames.

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Re: Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by steve7150 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:42 am

Personally, I do not/cannot believe in the traditional view of hell as an eternal place one goes to if they do not find God in this life.




As you know the bible says after we die we are judged "by our works." That to me is an interesting phrase since it allows a wide range of judgments since everyone's works are different.

The two main greek words for judged or judgment are "krisis" or "krino." They both have similar definitions. From the NAS Lexicon the meanings for "krisis" are,

a separating
a trial, contest
selection
judgment
opinion or decision
concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation or punishment


So the sentence of condemnation is the 7th choice and it even leaves room for restoration, but the first six definitions imply an opportunity for eventual restoration IMHO. Importantly that is in fact God's will. UR is the only result that is God's will.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:28 am

steve7150 wrote:Importantly that is in fact God's will. UR is the only result that is God's will.
Um, Steve, you leave no room for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which has no forgiveness. :D

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Re: Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by steve7150 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:37 am

steve7150 wrote:Importantly that is in fact God's will. UR is the only result that is God's will.



Um, Steve, you leave no room for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which has no forgiveness. :D

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robbyyoung





Good point Robby, but no forgiveness in this age or the age to come. How about the age to come to come? ;)

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robbyyoung
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Re: Question for those who believe in eternal hell...

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:53 am

steve7150 wrote:Good point Robby, but no forgiveness in this age or the age to come. How about the age to come to come? ;)
LOL!… No killing that futurist spirit for 10,000 years to come. ;)

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