The flesh is weak

dwilkins
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by dwilkins » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:44 pm

Paidion wrote:Doug, I think I have understood you, the apostle Paul, and Irenæus. I have read the gnostics (as much as I could stand of them), majored in philosophy at university, read part of "The Republic", etc.

But you strongly affirm that I haven't understood any one of the three (id est: you, the apostle Paul, and Irenæus), and seem to feel that any further explanation would be ineffective for poor, inattentive, ignorant me.

So I guess there's where it rests. There's nowhere else to go.
If you went to school at the age that most people do, and if your Santa Claus-like avatar looks anything like you these days, you may want to consider that academia has moved on in the last 40 years. I suggest that you do some more contemporary reading into philosophy in the first century. Specifically, I suggest that you take a look at Dale Martin, Troels Engberg-Pedersen, and Edwin Yamauchi.

Doug

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Paidion
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:38 am

... if your Santa Claus-like avatar looks anything like you these days...
Oh dear! I must change my avatar soon! I now look MUCH more like Santa Claus (though in summer time I'm told I look like Moses).
My hair is longer now, and my beard is also longer and bushier. However, I don't think this has any relevance to whether or not I read any of the literature which has dominated your theology.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Todd
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Todd » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:10 am

My argument is that everyone is changed in the resurrection and no longer encumbered by the weakness of the flesh. Evidently, Paidion seems to believe we will still have flesh and blood in the resurrection, but even if that is true (which I doubt), Paul says we are changed - we will have a different kind of body. Paul called it a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Todd

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Paidion
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:22 pm

Todd wrote:Paul says we are changed - we will have a different kind of body. Paul called it a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
What Paul actually said is, "It is sown a soulish ψυχικος (psychikoς—from which we get the English word "psyche" and "psychology") body, it is raised a spiritual πνευματικος (pneumatikos—from which we get the English word "pneumatic")body. There is a soulish body, and there is a spiritual body."

If Paul had meant to write a natural body, he would have written "φυσικος" (physikos—from which we get the English word "physical"). That's the word he used for "natural" in Romans 1:26.

So the resurrection body is not a different CLASS of body. The body is of the same nature, albeit a CHANGED nature. The present soulish body is mortal, and the spiritual resurrection body is immortal.

Paul compared the mortal body to a grain of wheat, and the resurrection body to the full-blown wheat plant. Both of these is WHEAT. The wheat plant is not something of a completely different order from a grain of wheat. It is not as if it were sown a grain of wheat and grew into a chickadee.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwilkins
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by dwilkins » Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:54 pm

Your assertion seems to be based on this:

"The body is of the same nature, albeit a CHANGED nature."

The logic of that escapes me.

Let's look at a few verses of what Paul is saying in 1st Cor. 15,

1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
1Co 15:39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
1Co 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

It seems to me that Paul's point is that what comes out of the Resurrection is of such a significantly different nature that you wouldn't recognize it. The idea that it's the same body, but with some upgrades, seems foreign to the text. And, it's foreign to how the term pneumas was used at the time. Back in that day, it represented the invisible, physical part of you that had life. Pneumas that had been changed to be like God's would have been of a significantly higher quality than the regular old pneumas, though both would have been physical and invisible nonetheless.

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Paidion
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:59 pm

Doug wrote:Pneumas that had been changed to be like God's would have been of a significantly higher quality than the regular old pneumas, though both would have been physical and invisible nonetheless.
Invisible? Are you saying that these spiritual bodies which we shall have will be invisible?

Will our resurrection bodies be different from that of Christ? Or do you think He was raised as an invisible spirit? Does an invisible spirit eat food as our Lord did after his resurrection? Does an invisible spirit have flesh and bones as our Lord had after His resurrection?

Was our Lord's resurrection "of such a significantly different nature that you wouldn't recognize it"? It's true that some didn't recognize Him as they didn't expect to see Him alive. But He made it clear that he was not a spirit, but the same man. He showed Thomas the nailprints in His hands, which had been made by nailing Him to the cross.
As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them. (Luke 24:36-43)
Clearly Jesus had the same body after God raised Him from the dead. But it was a changed body. On one occasion, he walked through a closed door.

Jesus was "the first-born of many brethren", the first-born of the resurrection. So all of his disciples from that day to this, and beyond, will be raised with a body similar to His glorious body. We, too, shall have the same body, but a changed body.
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (1 Cor. 15:51-53)
Our physical body being replaced by a disembodied spirit would not indicate a change in us. It would be a different entity rather than a change.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwilkins
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by dwilkins » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:33 am

No one said anything about a disembodied spirit. Again, for probably the 10th time, in Paul's time (and so his point in 1st Cor. 15) pneumas was considered to be a physical, invisible thing. John, who saw Christ during his ministry, at his crucifixion, after he was raised, and at his ascension (and therefore was a qualified expert on the topic) said the following:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

John didn't know what believers would be like after they were raised. He only knew that they would be like Christ was at the point that John wrote his letters. Why do you think that John didn't say that he knew that Jesus, and so we, would at least have flesh and bone bodies? I think there is a chance that you are trapped into thinking that you will be raised just like Christ was according to your preconception of the meaning of Romans 6:5

"Rom 6:5b . . . we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." But, your problem is actually the first part of that verse

"Rom 6:5a For if we have been united with him in a death like his . . ."

If you are going to take the second half of that statement literally then you are going to have to take the first part literally. In other words, unless you die on a cross you can't be raised like him. I doubt you'd be willing to stipulate to that, so, taken together, I doubt that Romans 6:5 should be taken quite a literally as you presume.

Doug

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Michelle
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Michelle » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:09 am

dwilkins wrote:No one said anything about a disembodied spirit. Again, for probably the 10th time, in Paul's time (and so his point in 1st Cor. 15) pneumas was considered to be a physical, invisible thing. John, who saw Christ during his ministry, at his crucifixion, after he was raised, and at his ascension (and therefore was a qualified expert on the topic) said the following:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

John didn't know what believers would be like after they were raised. He only knew that they would be like Christ was at the point that John wrote his letters. Why do you think that John didn't say that he knew that Jesus, and so we, would at least have flesh and bone bodies? I think there is a chance that you are trapped into thinking that you will be raised just like Christ was according to your preconception of the meaning of Romans 6:5

"Rom 6:5b . . . we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." But, your problem is actually the first part of that verse

"Rom 6:5a For if we have been united with him in a death like his . . ."

If you are going to take the second half of that statement literally then you are going to have to take the first part literally. In other words, unless you die on a cross you can't be raised like him. I doubt you'd be willing to stipulate to that, so, taken together, I doubt that Romans 6:5 should be taken quite a literally as you presume.

Doug
Just curious: If we're going to be raised as a physical, invisible thing, like Christ is, how can Jesus appear and how can we see him?

dwilkins
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by dwilkins » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:31 pm

Michelle wrote:
dwilkins wrote:No one said anything about a disembodied spirit. Again, for probably the 10th time, in Paul's time (and so his point in 1st Cor. 15) pneumas was considered to be a physical, invisible thing. John, who saw Christ during his ministry, at his crucifixion, after he was raised, and at his ascension (and therefore was a qualified expert on the topic) said the following:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

John didn't know what believers would be like after they were raised. He only knew that they would be like Christ was at the point that John wrote his letters. Why do you think that John didn't say that he knew that Jesus, and so we, would at least have flesh and bone bodies? I think there is a chance that you are trapped into thinking that you will be raised just like Christ was according to your preconception of the meaning of Romans 6:5

"Rom 6:5b . . . we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." But, your problem is actually the first part of that verse

"Rom 6:5a For if we have been united with him in a death like his . . ."

If you are going to take the second half of that statement literally then you are going to have to take the first part literally. In other words, unless you die on a cross you can't be raised like him. I doubt you'd be willing to stipulate to that, so, taken together, I doubt that Romans 6:5 should be taken quite a literally as you presume.

Doug
Just curious: If we're going to be raised as a physical, invisible thing, like Christ is, how can Jesus appear and how can we see him?
I'm not sure about how to answer your question because I'm not sure when you are talking about seeing him. Do you mean how did the Apostles see him after he was resurrected? Or, how will you see him when you die?

Doug

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Michelle
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Michelle » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:36 pm

I'm not sure about how to answer your question because I'm not sure when you are talking about seeing him. Do you mean how did the Apostles see him after he was resurrected? Or, how will you see him when you die?

Doug
Well, I was talking about when I die, I suppose. When do you think John was talking about in 1 John 3:2 when he talked about "we shall see him" and "when he appears"?

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