The flesh is weak

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Todd
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The flesh is weak

Post by Todd » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:55 am

Preface
I am a proponent of Ultra-Universalism, which is different from Christian Universalism. The Christian Universalist believes in a temporary hell after death for non-Christians, followed by the reconciliation of all to God. The Ultra-Universalist does not believe in a post-death hell; rather, that all people are changed at the resurrection and are united with God through Christ.

Postulate

Jesus said, "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41 NKJV)

Man's weakness, his temptation to sin, is in the self-serving nature and gratification of the flesh. This is a common theme in the Bible. In death, the spirit of man is released from his flesh, and the flesh decays and turns to dust. In the resurrection, man is no longer encumbered by fleshly desires - he is changed.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52 NKJV
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The idea that it is the flesh that encumbers man, and that he is freed from this encumbrance through death and the resurrection is further explained by Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 NKJV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

It is Christ then who is the Savior, making possible the resurrection of the dead through His sacrifice and breaking the bonds of death.

1 Corinthians 15:20-21 NKJV
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Todd

steve7150
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by steve7150 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:52 am

Todd,

With regards to the "unpardonable sin" not being forgiven in this age or the age to come? How do you respond to this?

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Todd
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Todd » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:29 pm

steve7150 wrote:Todd,

With regards to the "unpardonable sin" not being forgiven in this age or the age to come? How do you respond to this?
As an Ultra-Universalist I see forgiveness differently. When one is forgiven, he is spared the consequences of his sin. If one is not forgiven, he must endure the consequences. "This age" refers to the age prior to Christ's death and resurrection. "The age to come" refers to the Church Age. The consequences of this sin are suffered during one's lifetime. I do not believe this verse refers to anything that happens after one is dead.

Todd

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Paidion
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:55 pm

Irenæus wrote: If, however, we must speak strictly, [we would say that] the flesh does not inherit, but is inherited; as also the Lord declares, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall possess the earth by inheritance;” as if in the [future] kingdom, the earth, from whence exists the substance of our flesh, is to be possessed by inheritance. This is the reason for His wishing the temple (i.e., the flesh) to be clean, that the Spirit of God may take delight therein, as a bridegroom with a bride. As, therefore, the bride cannot [be said] to wed, but to be wedded, when the bridegroom comes and takes her, so also the flesh cannot by itself possess the kingdom of God by inheritance; but it can be taken for an inheritance into the kingdom of God. For a living person inherits the goods of the deceased; and it is one thing to inherit, another to be inherited. The former rules, and exercises power over, and orders the things inherited at his will; but the latter things are in a state of subjection, are under order, and are ruled over by him who has obtained the inheritance. What, therefore, is it that lives? The Spirit of God, doubtless. What, again, are the possessions of the deceased? The various parts of the man, surely, which rot in the earth. But these are inherited by the Spirit when they are translated into the kingdom of heaven. For this cause, too, did Christ die, that the Gospel covenant being manifested and known to the whole world, might in the first place set free His slaves; and then afterwards, as I have already shown, might constitute them heirs of His property, when the Spirit possesses them by inheritance. For he who lives inherits, but the flesh is inherited. In order that we may not lose life by losing that Spirit which possesses us, the apostle, exhorting us to the communion of the Spirit, has said, according to reason, in those words already quoted, “That flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” Just as if he were to say, “Do not err; for unless the Word of God dwell with, and the Spirit of the Father be in you, and if ye shall live frivolously and carelessly as if ye were this only, viz., mere flesh and blood, ye cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
Against Heresies, Book V, Ch IX
Paidion

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dwilkins
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by dwilkins » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:08 am

Irenaeus did a good job of cataloging the silliness of the mythical nature of Valentinians and some others (the relationship of the Bythos, Sophia, aeons, etc.). However, his analysis beyond that leaves a lot to be desired. In the passage you quoted, he is simply saying that flesh and blood alone can't inherit the kingdom of God, it must be accompanied by the spirit. He is doing this in order to maintain chiliasm (or the belief in a future literal, physical 1,000 year kingdom on earth), which was declared a heresy by the 381AD Constantinople modification of the 325AD Nicene Creed. I don't consider him to have provided a good alternative the Valentinians. Most of the patristic writers contributed things that we'd consider heresies, or at least laughable wackiness, so they should be approached with caution in my opinion.

Doug

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Paidion
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:05 pm

I see nothing heretical or wacky in the words of Irenæus.

Also I don't see the passage as saying that flesh and blood without the "spirit" (in the Greek philosophical sense of us possessing a spirit apart from the body) cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Rather he said that flesh and blood without the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of the Father) could not inherit the Kingdom of God. For without the Holy Spirit people are likely to live frivolously and carelessly.
Irenæus wrote:Just as if he were to say, “Do not err; for unless the Word of God dwell with, and the Spirit of the Father be in you, and if ye shall live frivolously and carelessly as if ye were this only, viz., mere flesh and blood, ye cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
What's heretical or wacky about that?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwilkins
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by dwilkins » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:47 am

Paidion wrote:I see nothing heretical or wacky in the words of Irenæus.

Also I don't see the passage as saying that flesh and blood without the "spirit" (in the Greek philosophical sense of us possessing a spirit apart from the body) cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Rather he said that flesh and blood without the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of the Father) could not inherit the Kingdom of God. For without the Holy Spirit people are likely to live frivolously and carelessly.
Irenæus wrote:Just as if he were to say, “Do not err; for unless the Word of God dwell with, and the Spirit of the Father be in you, and if ye shall live frivolously and carelessly as if ye were this only, viz., mere flesh and blood, ye cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
What's heretical or wacky about that?
I don't think you are paying attention to his point, or Paul's. Paul is contrasting flesh and blood with spirit. He is clearly saying that they are two different categories of existence. One of them can see the kingdom of God, the other one can't. There is no room in 1st Cor. 15 for saying that as long as you add spirit to flesh and blood that the flesh and blood can inherit the kingdom of God. Irenaeus needs such an interpretation to be true in order to maintain a view of the kingdom of God that has been declared heretical by the church.

Doug

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Paidion
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Paidion » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:29 pm

Doug wrote:I don't think you are paying attention to his point, or Paul's. Paul is contrasting flesh and blood with spirit. He is clearly saying that they are two different categories of existence. One of them can see the kingdom of God, the other one can't.
What you claim that Paul is clearly saying, is exactly what the gnostics believed, against which Irenæus was writing. They taught that all material things were created by Yahweh, the demiurge, who thought he was the supreme God but was mistaken. On the other hand, the Father or our Lord Jesus Christ was the actual supreme God, purely spiritual, who created all spiritual things including the human spirit. The gnostics taught that only those who become purely spirit would be saved, so that when they die, they would go straight to heaven, that there would be no bodily resurrection. Justin Martyr, in his Dialogue with Trypho, ch. LXXX, seems to have been referring to gnostics when he said, "If you have fallen in with some who are called 'Christians',... who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they ARE Christians."

Irenæus was teaching a different interpretation of Paul's words from that of the gnostics, namely that "mere flesh and blood" WITHOUT the Spirit of God would not inherit the Kingdom, but that those who did have the Spirit of God abiding within would be raised in the resurrection of the righteous in the same earthly bodies (albeit changed into immortal bodies, just as happened with Jesus in His resurrection).
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwilkins
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by dwilkins » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:25 am

Paidion wrote:
Doug wrote:I don't think you are paying attention to his point, or Paul's. Paul is contrasting flesh and blood with spirit. He is clearly saying that they are two different categories of existence. One of them can see the kingdom of God, the other one can't.
What you claim that Paul is clearly saying, is exactly what the gnostics believed, against which Irenæus was writing. They taught that all material things were created by Yahweh, the demiurge, who thought he was the supreme God but was mistaken. On the other hand, the Father or our Lord Jesus Christ was the actual supreme God, purely spiritual, who created all spiritual things including the human spirit. The gnostics taught that only those who become purely spirit would be saved, so that when they die, they would go straight to heaven, that there would be no bodily resurrection. Justin Martyr, in his Dialogue with Trypho, ch. LXXX, seems to have been referring to gnostics when he said, "If you have fallen in with some who are called 'Christians',... who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they ARE Christians."

Irenæus was teaching a different interpretation of Paul's words from that of the gnostics, namely that "mere flesh and blood" WITHOUT the Spirit of God would not inherit the Kingdom, but that those who did have the Spirit of God abiding within would be raised in the resurrection of the righteous in the same earthly bodies (albeit changed into immortal bodies, just as happened with Jesus in His resurrection).
What I am saying is not what the Gnostics believed. I've described why in detail in the past but I have gotten no indication that you have either read the explanation or understood it. So, I won't repeat it for no reason. I suggest that you do some more up to date research on Gnosticism and the role of Greek philosophy in the first century period.

Doug

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Paidion
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Re: The flesh is weak

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:45 pm

Doug, I think I have understood you, the apostle Paul, and Irenæus. I have read the gnostics (as much as I could stand of them), majored in philosophy at university, read part of "The Republic", etc.

But you strongly affirm that I haven't understood any one of the three (id est: you, the apostle Paul, and Irenæus), and seem to feel that any further explanation would be ineffective for poor, inattentive, ignorant me.

So I guess there's where it rests. There's nowhere else to go.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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