How does death...

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steve
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Re: How does death...

Post by steve » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:10 am

But was John's statement that "God is love" meant to be any more than a partial description? What, scripturally, would cause us to think so, any more than He is holy and He is just?
At first blush, this seems possible. However, words like "holy" and "just" are adjectives, to which a great number more may be added in describing what God is like. They tell us what kind of God He is. He is good, faithful, just, compassionate, holy, etc. These are all descriptors.

John deviates from this pattern three times, wherein, in each case, he follows "God is..." with a noun, not an adjective:

God is Spirit (John 4:24)
God is Light (1 John 1:5)
God is Love (1 John 4:8)

It seems that these statements tell us essentially what God is, rather than what kind of person He is. I am not saying that the various adjectives do not tell us anything about what God is in essence. In fact, just the opposite. I would say they tell us things that are true of Him because of what He is in essence. However, they are different kinds of statements.

If the Bible somewhere said, "God is holiness," or "God is justice," or "God is wrath" (all nouns), we would have as much reason to see these things as descriptions of His essential being in the same sense that He is love (or light, or spirit). The absence of such language, I think, supports Matt's contention.

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Michelle
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Re: How does death...

Post by Michelle » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:08 pm

I wrote:So, while I was surprised by these quotes, I should have realized that they were not expressions of disagreement about God's love but were simply objections to mattrose's argument that love lends support to trinitarianism. In order to pick apart Matt's conclusion, it was necessary to prove that God's love isn't the core of His character, and, perhaps, not even that major. I think Darin did a better job of arguing, even though I couldn't buy his conclusion.
When I wrote this, I was being a bit snarky. I'm sorry.

It seems to me that this was mattrose's argument:

God is love.

Love requires an object.

God existed before man was created.

Therefore love had as its object the other members of the trinity.

It seems to me that Matt's argument was questioned on the first two premises. Several people argued that it may not be true that love requires an object, but could perhaps be potential love, waiting for an object.

Others (like those whose quotes I posted the other day) argued against the first premise saying that Love is not necessarily the core characteristic of God.

So you, steve7150, are correct about some posters in that other thread, but I am also correct about what some were trying to prove.

steve7150
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Re: How does death...

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:21 pm

It seems to me that Matt's argument was questioned on the first two premises. Several people argued that it may not be true that love requires an object, but could perhaps be potential love, waiting for an object.

Others (like those whose quotes I posted the other day) argued against the first premise saying that Love is not necessarily the core characteristic of God.

So you, steve7150, are correct about some posters in that other thread, but I am also correct about what some were trying to prove.







Sounds like we are getting off on the right foot for 2014 Michele, both of us being right! :lol:

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Michelle
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Re: How does death...

Post by Michelle » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:32 pm

:lol:

Singalphile
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Re: How does death...

Post by Singalphile » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:32 pm

Hello all,

I think that the idea of "death" as separation from God probably comes largely from Matt 25:41 and 2 Thess 1:9.

Like jaydam, I'm not sure how one could say that "hell" is the total absence of God and therefore the total absence of good, since it seems like life (or consciousness) is itself a good thing, so that doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. I think that most Christian theologians wouldn't agree with that idea, though it may be popular elsewhere. It's not really an argument against the trad. view.

The phrase "the second death" was apparently used in some Jewish commentaries ("targumim") around the time of Christ. Also, I think that the Greek idea of death was the separation of the immortal soul from the mortal body.
But it's always unclear to me whether or not the writers/people in the NT had the same views when they used the same kinds of words and phrases. One wouldn't think so, but....

I think that death is sometimes spoken of proleptically in both the OT and NT, as in the verses that Todd quoted. (I first heard that word from Hank Hanegraaff.)

As for justice, Paul does indicate that it is just (or righteous) for God to repay those who afflict the saints (2 Thess 1:6).
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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