How does death...

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Todd
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Re: How does death...

Post by Todd » Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:38 pm

mattrose wrote:I think that is a crazy conception of God.
Me too!

Todd

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Michelle
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Re: How does death...

Post by Michelle » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:11 pm

mattrose wrote:
Michelle wrote:
mattrose wrote:To be clear I think this view is borderline insane...
Matt, would you mind briefly explaining what you mean by 'insane'?
Hey Michelle! I didn't mean it in any clinical sense (especially since I'm not qualified to make such a diagnosis). But from my perspective, anyone who thinks that God is so bent on punishing people that he takes people that would have otherwise passed away and purposefully keeps them alive solely to have them experience torture has an insane theology in the sense of.... how could one worship a god like that?

Most defenders of everlasting misery believe that people are in some sense immortal, so God doesn't really have a choice to let them pass away. But I found a couple writers that believed the wicked would naturally pass away, but God intervenes to keep them alive for torture. I think that is a crazy conception of God.
Thanks, Matt! There has been so many misunderstandings on this site lately that I wanted to be sure I understood you correctly. I, too, think that the concept you outline - the God who keeps the wicked alive to torture for eternity - is, well, crazy. I was also surprised recently when you got push-back on your premise that God's core characteristic is love. I had always assumed that love was the core characteristic of God, and so, I've been thinking about it a lot. Someone suggested that love takes a backseat to justice. If so, could it be just for God to punish the wicked for eternity?

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steve
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Re: How does death...

Post by steve » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:02 pm

Love cannot take a backseat to justice because justice is one component of love, not something contrary to it.

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Paidion
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Re: How does death...

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:31 am

Love cannot take a backseat to justice because justice is one component of love, not something contrary to it.
Ahhh! This sentence sounds as if it could have been written by George MacDonald!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Todd
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Re: How does death...

Post by Todd » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:17 am

Michelle wrote:Someone suggested that love takes a backseat to justice.
I think a lot of people these days equate the concept of justice with punishment. To me, if justice reigns, there is no need for punishment because nothing wrong has been done, only that which is right. Justice is the opposite of injustice.

Todd

steve7150
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Re: How does death...

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:45 am

I was also surprised recently when you got push-back on your premise that God's core characteristic is love. I had always assumed that love was the core characteristic of God,





Michelle,
I don't think there was push-back about God and love but that it lent support to a particular trinitarian view of God.

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Michelle
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Re: How does death...

Post by Michelle » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:18 pm

steve7150 wrote:I was also surprised recently when you got push-back on your premise that God's core characteristic is love. I had always assumed that love was the core characteristic of God,





Michelle,
I don't think there was push-back about God and love but that it lent support to a particular trinitarian view of God.
Hi, steve7150, happy new year! Maybe I was incorrect about the push-back. Here are particular quotes which led me to my opinion:
Jeremiah wrote:Hello Matt,

I'm not really in agreement with you on this, but I don't want to be prematurely critical about what you've written here. Is there somewhere on Theos where I can find more about what you're presenting?
I believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is essential (in the sense that it is most consistent with) a theology of love. The Bible says that God is love. I am of the school of thought that LOVE is God's core characteristic. Indeed, all other 'attributes' of God are simply His love playing out in context.
I was hoping you can elaborate on the first and last two sentences of the above quote. They aren't obvious to my mind. That is, why can't God's other "attributes", including his lovingkindness, simply be his holiness playing out in context?

Grace and peace to you.
mattrose wrote:The major objection to my thoughts seems to be that placing love at the core of God's character is arbitrary.

To be frank, I find this utterly baffling. The love of God is what speaks most clearly through the entire biblical narrative in my opinion. It is also what speaks most clearly to my real life. It also makes sense that if the Trinity is a true doctrine, love is fascinatingly essential to what it means to be God.

But like I said, I don't really care to persuade anyone. I was just sharing my perspective. I have found it personally refreshing and, contrary to Darin's observation, persuasive in evangelism and apologetics.
Homer wrote:Hi matt,

You wrote:
To be frank, I find this utterly baffling. The love of God is what speaks most clearly through the entire biblical narrative in my opinion.
But was John's statement that "God is love" meant to be any more than a partial description? What, scripturally, would cause us to think so, any more than He is holy and He is just? It would seem the greatest emphasis throughout scripture is that He is Lord, since we are informed of this over 4,000 times. And this is what Christians have historically confessed (and commanded to do so).

Now it might be objected that Lord is a description of His position, or what He does, but then love is an action word and is also what He does, perhaps best translated "charity".

In saying this I am not disagreeing with your thoughts about love among the Trinity prior to creation. God's purpose in creation may have been to share this love.
mattrose wrote:I don't base my argument on the passage in 1 John. I base it on Jesus. Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus is fullest revelation of God there is. We know more about God through Jesus than we do through the Bible. The best the Bible can do is get us to Jesus. And what do we learn about God from Jesus? It is not primarily justice (He wasn't just... He was gracious). It wasn't holiness (He wasn't set apart... He hung out with sinners). It wasn't sovereignty (He wasn't sovereign... He laid that aside). All the attributes of God are non-essential in the sense that Jesus gave them up without giving up His deity. This shows us that the truest truth about God is nothing other than His sacrificial love.
jriccitelli wrote:'... and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev.6:16-17)
Is this same Jesus you are talking of Matt?
jeremiah wrote:Matt,
...Wrath is love expressed in the context of rebellion.
Well then, now both of us are baffled.

Grace and peace to you.
So, while I was surprised by these quotes, I should have realized that they were not expressions of disagreement about God's love but were simply objections to mattrose's argument that love lends support to trinitarianism. In order to pick apart Matt's conclusion, it was necessary to prove that God's love isn't the core of His character, and, perhaps, not even that major. I think Darin did a better job of arguing, even though I couldn't buy his conclusion.

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Michelle
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Re: How does death...

Post by Michelle » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:25 pm

Jaydam, Happy New Year! So sorry to have derailed your thread. I liked the original topic; it was thought provoking.

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Re: How does death...

Post by jaydam » Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:08 pm

Michelle wrote:Jaydam, Happy New Year! So sorry to have derailed your thread. I liked the original topic; it was thought provoking.
No worries. I'm not one to mind the natural course of discussion. Happy New Year to you as well.

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Paidion
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Re: How does death...

Post by Paidion » Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:29 pm

I think a lot of people these days equate the concept of justice with punishment. To me, if justice reigns, there is no need for punishment because nothing wrong has been done, only that which is right. Justice is the opposite of injustice.
Yes, "justice" is clearly the opposite of "injustice".

However, punishment with a view to correction is not injustice, and indeed may be justice. Punishment is not the essence of justice, but may be a component of it. Another component is "fairness".

...and have you forgotten the encouragement which addresses you as sons? "My son, do not disregard the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom He loves, and chastises every son whom He receives." It is for discipline that you need to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? (Hebrews 12:5-7)

Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:9-11)

A good earthly father disciplines hs son in order to train him that his character might be improved. This discipline might be called "punishment" but the motive of a good father is not that of vengeance. Nor is it even merely the infliction of a penalty on the son because he has broken the household rules. The father's motive is purely for the son's betterment. So it is with our heavenly Father. Such "punishment" is indeed an expression of justice.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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