Why not Universal Reconciliation?

[mattrose]

Mattrose
Since I don't buy UR as valid theory then no 87 years would not be enough. I think we will recognize people in heaven BTW.

I didn't mean he wouldn't be recognized as Hitler (by appearances). I was saying his character would be so transformed he wouldn't be the monster that we know as Hitler at the heart level.

And I have a question for you...

If, hypothetically, Hitler did genuinely repent after 87 years in the Lake of Fire... what what would be your objection to God welcoming him?

Or do you just refuse to play the hypothetical b/c you insist UR isn't true? If so, what is your main biblical argument against it?

Thanks!
matthew

[MMathis]

Or do you just refuse to play the hypothetical b/c you insist UR isn't true? If so, what is your main biblical argument against it?

Thanks!
matthew

Steve makes a better biblical argument for the different views than I could ever make, and he remains undecided. You have chosen to go with UR. I chose not to go with UR. I've never thought the traditional view of eternal torment was correct. So, I guess that puts me in the last version.

Every preacher I've ever met could make a good biblical case for why his version was best. The Catholic hang their hat on Peter. People have been making good biblical cases for a long time and the answer is still the same. We don't know anything for sure.

[mattrose]

Steve makes a better biblical argument for the different views than I could ever make, and he remains undecided. You have chosen to go with UR. I chose not to go with UR. I've never thought the traditional view of eternal torment was correct. So, I guess that puts me in the last version.

I am not a believer in UR. You might have gotten that impression b/c I was questioning your seemingly quick rejection of it. I am an advocate of the eventual extinction view. I was just genuinely interested in how you would answer the questions I posed to you.

[MMathis]

Mattrose

My apologies to you. Looks like we are in the same camp.

To me, UR sounds like something made up to allow anything goes. Much like the Catholic purgatory.

I don't engage in biblical "mine is bigger than yours" as I am not a scholar. As I said, many learned people have studied every verse for many hundreds of years and they don't seem to be as close to the truth as they were when they started.

[mattrose]

Mattrose

My apologies to you. Looks like we are in the same camp.

To me, UR sounds like something made up to allow anything goes. Much like the Catholic purgatory.

I don't engage in biblical "mine is bigger than yours" as I am not a scholar. As I said, many learned people have studied every verse for many hundreds of years and they don't seem to be as close to the truth as they were when they started.

I think it is important, though, to look at views you don't agree with and understand where people are coming from. You said you're currently reading Steve's book... I would find it surpising if, by the time you finish, you are still of the opinion that "UR sounds like something made up to allow anything goes." Clearly that is not the motivation that drives the evangelical universalists that I have read (or that are represented in Steve's book).

[Paidion]

That doesn't seem fair to the victims. I don't think God would subject them to that.

What WOULD seem fair to the victims? Would a thousand years of suffering in the flames be fair? Or how about a million years? Or a trillion?
Or would it have to be an eternity of suffering?

I don't think an eternity of suffering would be fair to anyone, including Adolph Hitler.

I believe all of God's judgments are remedial, that God's purpose is to bring people to righteousness through correction, that He has no desire to inflict infinite revenge or useless, eternal penalties. Nor should we desire revenge or penalty just for it's own sake (apart from reformation).

For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Heb 12:6-11ESV)

Some might say that this description of God's discipline is only for His children. But in the sense that He is the Creator, all are His children.

[MMathis]

I guess we should have posted it as a poll.

1. UR = do bad stuff, pay a penalty, get redeemed
2. Traditional = do bad stuff, get tortured forever
3. My view = do bad stuff, that's it. Gone forever (the punishment is no eternal life)

I know I'm simplifying it a great deal, but are these the basics?

[Paidion]

1. UR = do bad stuff, pay a penalty, get redeemed
2. Traditional = do bad stuff, get tortured forever
3. My view = do bad stuff, that's it. Gone forever (the punishment is no eternal life)

I know I'm simplifying it a great deal, but are these the basics?

For those who believe that those who "do bad stuff" are penalized, I suppose those are the basics. But not everyone sees God as a penalizing God. (See my signature statement).

Here's another version of the basics:

1. UR: Do bad stuff and either (1) Have a change of mind and heart and get delivered from wrongdoing by the sacrifice of Christ in this life or (2) Suffer discomfort in the next life with a view to be corrected so that you have a change of mind and heart and get delivered from wrongdoing by the sacrifice of Christ at some point.

2. Traditional (1) In this life, accept Christ as your personal Saviour or trust in the finished work of Christ, or pray, "God be merciful to me, a sinner, and save me by your grace or (some other formula) and get saved from Hell or (2) in the next life be tormented forever.

3. Same as 2 except the alternative is to be annihilated.

This also is too simple since there are multiple views for all three positions.

[MMathis]

Paidion

I should have inserted "death, did not repent" after do bad stuff.

I always understood that up til physical death you could repent and be saved. After that, no. If that's not the case then maybe the Mormons are justified in doing work for the dead. I don't think so though.

All those versions of the 3 mentioned are what people have been at odds about for centuries. They have studied every phrase and syllable and not come up with more than they started with.

[steve7150]

I always understood that up til physical death you could repent and be saved. After that, no. If that's not the case then maybe the Mormons are justified in doing work for the dead. I don't think so though.









The greek words for judgment "krisis" and "krino" both have about 7 definitions and they last two are "condemned" and "damned". The first 5 seem to allow for
a process of restoration at least IMO.
The traditional bible translators are human beings subject to certain influences when translating and historically the power in the church was in controlling the masses by any means available.
So if you are interested, it doesn't take a lot of effort to check it out.