Why not Universal Reconciliation?

[steve]

My position is that there is too much ambiguity on the subject to be certain. Every verse raised by every position can be interpreted differently by those of other positions. Some of the interpretations require a bit of a stretch, but this is true, to some extent, with each position. If I felt I had to decide upon a view today, I would have to concern myself more with the relative strength of the different views. Since I am under no constraint to make up my mind, I am satisfied with indecision.

[robbyyoung]

There are many who place special emphasis on the words spoken by Jesus. When he addresses the crowds, and I believe the religious rulers as well, it is said, "All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. (Matt 13:34)" Therefore, when we read 'the parable: an earthly story with a heavenly meaning' found in Luke 16:19-31, and compare it with Matt 26:24, it's seems clear there is a place of torment where the unsaved goes, even to the extent of not having existed would have been better. This would seem to indicate one's existence will be ongoing.

I think we would be on safe ground telling the parable as Jesus outlined, rather than adding an escape clause to it. But it's very interesting that at the Great White Throne judgement, the unsaved are thrown into The Lake of Fire but it doesn't say for how long. Unlike the Beast and the False Prophet, Devil and his Angels, who will suffer for the ages of the ages.

God Bless!

[mattrose]

Second, I find a good Scriptural case (and I actually consider it a bit stronger of a case) may be made for eventual extinction too.

Given the idea that a majority of people would face extinction, how do you understand the apparent result where the Devil/sin/evil destroys a good portion of God's creation and effectively hollows out any victory ultimately claimed by God?

I don't agree that a majority of people will ultimately cease to exist. For one things, I believe that a great number of people on this planet currently (and throughout history) are genuinely ignorant (for all intents and purposes) of the Gospel. I believe all such people (At least) will be given a postmortem opportunity to respond to God. I think anyone and everyone that ultimately spends time in hell will do so because they have willfully rejected God and the gospel. Secondly, I think even those people who enter the Lake of Fire will still have opportunity to be refined by it and, ultimately, respond to God's grace. I reckon that a good percentage, one way or another, will ultimately humble themselves before God. Some might not... and it is those people who would face ultimate extinction.

I do agree with you that it would be a 'hollow victory' if the vast majority of people ended up extinct.
I also think it would be a hollow victory if the vast majority ended up in heaven against their wishes.

[Homer]

Given the idea that a majority of people would face extinction, how do you understand the apparent result where the Devil/sin/evil destroys a good portion of God's creation and effectively hollows out any victory ultimately claimed by God?

If you believe in an age of accountability there would seem to be a great many millions (or billions) down through the ages who have never reached that age. Time once was when perhaps a majority of those born never reached maturity. Add to that the millions being aborted today.

I have never understood the "God the loser" argument. Seems like saying Hitler won WWII because we didn't make him our friend.

[steve7150]

I have never understood the "God the loser" argument.








Seems straightforward to me. Satan accomplishes his mission and God doesn't get what he wants/wills/desires.

[steve7150]

But it's very interesting that at the Great White Throne judgement, the unsaved are thrown into The Lake of Fire but it doesn't say for how long. Unlike the Beast and the False Prophet, Devil and his Angels, who will suffer for the ages of the ages.











Good thought as i never noticed it but maybe it is a contrast between the groups.

[MMathis]

I'm confused about what this means.
Someday I'm walking around heaven and I run into Adolf Hiller. He says "oh yeah I got in too!

That doesn't seem fair to the victims. I don't think God would subject them to that.

[mattrose]

I'm confused about what this means.
Someday I'm walking around heaven and I run into Adolf Hiller. He says "oh yeah I got in too!

That doesn't seem fair to the victims. I don't think God would subject them to that.

If you met Adolf Hitler in heaven and found out that he went to the Lake of Fire for 87 years (just to throw out an arbitrary number), was slowly broken, humbled, and brought to repentance.... you'd still feel like the victims were being slighted? Is there a # (of years) you'd have in mind as enough?

The fictional quote "Oh yea I got in too!" you created makes it sound like he got in easy and without being transformed. But that is not what any of the UR supporters/defenders on this site are supporting/defending as far as I can tell. Fact is, if what some posters posit is true, you wouldn't recognize Hitler in heaven. He'd have been refined by the fire.

[steve]

Also, assuming all of Hitler's victims in heaven had also come to Christ, and shared in Christ's Spirit, it is impossible that they would be unhappy to see Hitler reformed and saved. Those possessing the Spirit of Jesus say of those who murder them, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) and "Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge" (Acts 7:60). I have personally been betrayed by many people in my life. Though none have yet betrayed me to death, some have been the cause of agonies instead of which I would have gladly chosen death. I hope to see every one of them in heaven.

[MMathis]

Steve, I'm reading your book on hell.

I guess i'm not in the UR camp.

Mattrose
Since I don't buy UR as valid theory then no 87 years would not be enough. I think we will recognize people in heaven BTW.