Steve's Book

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Homer
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Re: Steve's Book

Post by Homer » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:55 am

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
Too late to reign with Christ. This life is the qualifying ground. Those who fail the finals do not qualify. It is like a timed exam. Once the bell goes off, there is no more time to get the answers right. The judgment day is the bell going off. There is no more time to get in on the graduation and promotion celebration after that.
Those who miss it, as Paul put it, "will not inherit the kingdom of God." That is, they do not inherit a position of ruling—as Adonijah did not inherit the kingdom of David.

So that's it? You are saying the universalist position (yours also?) would be that the purpose of this life is to determine whether we will be in some sort of supervisory or management position in the age to come? And that is what "inheriting the kingdom" means? We will rule over others who wind up in the same place via hell?

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steve
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Re: Steve's Book

Post by steve » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:11 am

I don't know that universalists would sign on to this, necessarily, but, apart from your last line, yes, this would be my affirmation. These things seem clearly enough taught in scripture, don't they (Gen.1:26; Matt.5:5; Luke 19:16-19; Matt.24:46-47; 2 Tim.2:12; Rev.5:10)?

The part about people (the ones reigned over) coming "via hell" to the same place still involves speculation. This seems like one possible route by which they might get there. Who they are, we are never told.

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Homer
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Re: Steve's Book

Post by Homer » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:25 am

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
This doesn't seem like a hard question.

Too late to reign with Christ. This life is the qualifying ground. Those who fail the finals do not qualify. It is like a timed exam. Once the bell goes off, there is no more time to get the answers right. The judgment day is the bell going off. There is no more time to get in on the graduation and promotion celebration after that.

Those who miss it, as Paul put it, "will not inherit the kingdom of God." That is, they do not inherit a position of ruling—as Adonijah did not inherit the kingdom of David. That doesn't mean, of course, that Adonijah was not a citizen, or a subject in that kingdom. If some are said to reign, there must be some who are reigned over.
You have equated Jesus' statement, Luke 14:24, "For I tell you (plural), none of those men who were invited shall taste (in the future) of my dinner", with failure to inherit the kingdom and reigning with Christ. With you I agree that they will never inherit the kingdom. But we reign (Greek, basileuo) with Christ by virtue of our adoption as sons (and daughters, of course):

Galatians 4:5, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5. so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Jesus is king, we are "in Him", part of His family, and are thus royalty:

1 Peter 2:9, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9. But you are a chosen race, a royal (Greek basileios) priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

We see that the Greek adjective and verb forms, basileios and basileuo both show that reigning is a prerogative of being part of Christ's royal family. In Christ you reign, out of Christ you do not. Who/what is to be reigned over (angels, new creation?) is not the question. Clearly, there are some who "will never taste my dinner", never be part of the inheritance of the kingdom, never be part of Christ, otherwise, they too would reign. How they would be in Heaven is the challenge for you, or the universalists, to show.

Seems to be a very hard question.

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steve
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Re: Steve's Book

Post by steve » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:08 pm

You have equated Jesus' statement, Luke 14:24, "For I tell you (plural), none of those men who were invited shall taste (in the future) of my dinner", with failure to inherit the kingdom and reigning with Christ. With you I agree that they will never inherit the kingdom. But we reign (Greek, basileuo) with Christ by virtue of our adoption as sons (and daughters, of course):

Galatians 4:5, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5. so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Jesus is king, we are "in Him", part of His family, and are thus royalty:

1 Peter 2:9, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9. But you are a chosen race, a royal (Greek basileios) priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

We see that the Greek adjective and verb forms, basileios and basileuo both show that reigning is a prerogative of being part of Christ's royal family. In Christ you reign, out of Christ you do not. Who/what is to be reigned over (angels, new creation?) is not the question. Clearly, there are some who "will never taste my dinner", never be part of the inheritance of the kingdom, never be part of Christ, otherwise, they too would reign. How they would be in Heaven is the challenge for you, or the universalists, to show.
In your post, you have equated a number of concepts that are not necessarily equated in the texts cited. I agree that Christians (those who will reign with Christ) have been "adopted as sons," that we are "invited to the feast," and also that we are "In Christ." This being the case, we may be inclined to consider all of these categories to be equivalent and interchangeable concepts. In fact, however, they may merely be overlapping, rather than equivalent, categories.

Of four of my children, it can be said a) that they are my children; b) that they live in the same State that I live in; and c) that I married their mother when I was 28 years old. These statements would all be true, but they are not interchangeable concepts, and while statement "a" would apply to my oldest daughter, the other two would not. There are a large number of things said about Christians, of which some may, and others may not, apply to persons reigned over in the new earth.

Do we know for certain that one must participate in "the feast," or be an "adopted child of God" or "in Christ" (in the Pauline sense of that word) in order to live in the new earth? I don't know if this is so. If you do, you must have information not readily available to me.
How they would be in Heaven is the challenge for you, or the universalists, to show.
I don't expect anyone, after the judgment, to be living in "heaven."

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