Proof Text for Eventual Restoration

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Paidion
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Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Proof Text for Eventual Restoration

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:18 am

Greetings Steve,
First I want to thank you for taking the time to discuss these matters with me. To me it seems impossible that you have the time to discuss matters which you deem important in this forum, have two radio broadcasts every day, write books, conduct special "schools" of learning, write Bible commentaries, and engage other learned men in public debates. However, don't think I'm trying to flatter you. I'm just stating what I perceive to be a fact (perhaps because it would be impossible for me, even when I was younger.)

I haven't found convincing most of what you said in your last post, and clearly you did not find my position tenable. I think nothing would be accomplished by my responding to the points of your recent post although I feel capable of doing so (with the exception of one of them, which I detail below). However, I do want to address the following quote:
You, on the other hand, are the only Christian correspondent with whom our whole argument is over whether or not the scriptures are actually true! I have never previously debated a Christian who believed the scriptures must take a back seat to his feelings.
As to the second sentence, it dismays me that you still think my beliefs are merely subjective. I have clearly stated several times that my beliefs are based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

At to whether "the scriptures are actually true", it seems that you, yourself, believe in an infallible Bible and/or in the infallibility of the prophets whom you consider to be inspired. Those who hold that the writings of the Bible are "the infallible word of God" have a problem of as to what authority defines these God-given scriptures (though they seldom recognize the problem). In other words, how do they know which writings should comprise the infallible canon? As to infallible prophets or spokespersons of God, I doubt that such exist or ever existed. All prophets are fallible. Even the prophet Moses made the mistake of angrily striking the rock to bring forth water instead of speaking to it, and was not permitted to lead the Israelites into the promised land. Nor do the prophecies of God's prophets' necessarily come true, such as those of Jonah and Micah (some get around this by claiming these prophesies were conditional).

My own view of the Bible is that it is largely history—much of the Old Testament, the memoirs (or the "gospels" if you prefer), and the book of Acts, and that the historical parts are historically reliable. The letters of Paul are largely his encouragement,instruction, and warning to the early churches. Paul understood Jesus' teachings and applied them to many situations which sprang up in the churches. I agree with Paul's encouraging words and instructions and warnings. I feel much the same about his fellow helper Clement and his letter to the Corinthians shortly after the death of Peter and Paul.

I do believe that even the history recorded in the Old Testament is reliable. I believe in the creation account as recorded and that it was accomplished in 6 twenty-four hour periods, a literal Adam and Eve as the original ancestors of all mankind, the story of Noah and a world-wide flood (not merely a local one), the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. I believe all of these to be literal events. What I question is that the Biblical writers were correct in which they stated God to be the cause of calamities. Ascribing to God the cause of such disasters is still being done today. For examples, God caused the twin towers to fall in order to punish United States. God cause earthquakes and tsunamis to punish the local people who have suffered from them, God caused the holocaust in order to punish the Jews (even Art Katz, a brilliant Jewish Christian leader believed this, and in verbalizing it, led some of his fellow Jews to become furious). It seems to me reasonable to think that ancient Hebrew leaders could also have reasoned this way, thinking God to be the cause when natural disasters took place. It seems that even you have not considered that such events could have been natural disasters since you asked me who I thought brought them about, if not God.

The one point in your last post which had a great deal of influence with me was your quote from Jesus in Matt 15:4 (your "Checkmate"). This quote is also recorded in Mark 7:10. "For God said, 'Honour your father and mother and he who reviles father and mother let him die.'" I briefly considered that "let him die" might mean "allow him to die", but quickly rejected that thought since "let him die" is translated from a Greek verb which is in the imperative mode.

As you know, I do believe all the words that Jesus spoke are true, and I have no good reason to think He didn't speak these words. Yet because of this one sentence, I am not yet prepared to change my paradigm of thought in the matter. Notwithstanding, I am grateful that you brought this statement of Jesus to my attention. It helped me to realize that my paradigm is not neatly packaged in such a way as to resist all opposition. And I think that may also be the case with most if not all other paradigms.

With this, I want to end this exchange and wish for you God's blessing and His enabling grace.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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steve
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Re: Proof Text for Eventual Restoration

Post by steve » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:22 pm

Thanks for your honest and humble response, Paidion.

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