Weeping and gnashing of teeth

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jaydam
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Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by jaydam » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:28 pm

Obviously the majority opinion is that the place of outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth is a reference to final hell.

However, for various reasons I am questioning such a view. This has led me to look for alternative understandings, and I came across Ps 112, specifically v10.

In light of Ps 112, it seems the wicked can be in a current state of gnashing their teeth as they see the current state of the righteous. Also, v4 indicates that the darkness exists now. Therefore, could the place of outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth actually be a current state the wicked are given over to in the present?

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Re: Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:18 pm

I am inclined to believe in post-mortem weeping and gnashing of teeth. But I'm not sure how much of this is physical and how much results from the weepers understanding of the harm they had imposed on others as well as self, and experiencing the remorse which leads to repentance.
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jaydam
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Re: Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by jaydam » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:35 pm

If the state of being in outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth has to do with receiving judgment, feeling remorse, or even being upset at one's plight while observing the reward to the righteous, it still seems that such a state of being can be seen to be inflicted at anytime.

One could find themselves in such a state on earth when they experience physical judgment here, or one could find themselves in such a state after "judgment day" when they come under final judgment.

I suppose I am not so much denying the possibility that weeping and gnashing of teeth can happen later, but considering that if it references a state of being, then perhaps such a state of being can be inflicted now. It seems Ps 112 would suppost this.

The implication of this would be that some of the threats of Christ that people will be cast into darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, could have already been carried out before the final judgment day since such a threat could be inflicted pre-final judgment.

Again, I am not solid on this, just considering it.

If I was to consider a hyper preterist belief that says everything in scripture relating to Christ's "second" coming has occurred, then it seems part of that coming involved the casting of certain people into the place with weeping and gnashing of teeth. My consideration of the matter is partially to see if I could understand such a thing as having occurred.

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Re: Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by backwoodsman » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:50 pm

In the 3 instances in Matthew where Jesus mentions being cast "into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (8:12, 22:13, 25:30) all seem to me to be clearly referring to final judgment.

The word translated 'grieved' in some versions of Psalm 112:10 can also mean to be indignant or angry; gnashing of teeth is, I think, more a sign of anger than sorrow. So it says, the wicked will see the generosity of the righteous, and be angry as he melts away and perishes. To me that sounds like final judgment as well, perhaps fitting most closely with an annihilationist view, but could work with the other views as well. But it is after all a psalm, not a theological treatise, so I can see how it might be applied to a present condition; but it seems to me the less likely meaning.

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Re: Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by Singalphile » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:59 pm

I think so, jaydam.
backwoodsman wrote:In the 3 instances in Matthew where Jesus mentions being cast "into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (8:12, 22:13, 25:30) all seem to me to be clearly referring to final judgment.
I don't see that. It seems to me like these negative judgments are mostly directed at "sons of the kingdom" or the "worthless slaves/servants", which seem to me like a pronouncement of the impending 1st century punishment and the demographic change in the kingdom of God that followed. I think that many people who are alive now are a part of "the kingdom", and many who are living now are in "outer darkness".

But I do suppose that the final (recorded) judgment will involve weeping and gnashing as well, some more than others, I guess.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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jaydam
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Re: Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by jaydam » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:06 pm

backwoodsman wrote:In the 3 instances in Matthew where Jesus mentions being cast "into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (8:12, 22:13, 25:30) all seem to me to be clearly referring to final judgment.
I would add Mt 24:51 to the instances of Jesus' mentions.

The solid instance I believe shows a future time for the judgment of being cast into the outer darkness with the weeping and gnashing of teeth is from the marriage feast (Mt 22). In this story, I believe the ones who are invited but found unworthy are the Jews and the second round of invitees are the Gentiles. It is a man from the second round of invitations who is found improperly dressed, and he is cast into the outer darkness. By implication, I think this was a Gentile. Additionally, I do not know as I believe the wedding feast is upon us yet. Rather, now is still the time of inviting. This means that this instance of casting into outer darkness displayed here would be looking to a time that has not happened yet.

However, I don't know how much "casting" there really is as Lk 13:28-29 seems to indicate more that it is not an exact place one is cast into, but is a state one falls into when they see they are excluded. That is why I like Heb 7:8 translates the same words as "in that case" rather than "in that place."

I'm starting to believe that the Hebrews translation is the way all instances should be translated. Because we are talking about the circumstances surrounding the case which leads to a state of being.

For example, Mt 8:12 would then read: "the sons of the kingdom will be cast (shut out) into the outer darkness; in that case there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The implication is not so much where the sons are sent as what they are excluded from, and the feelings they have from such exclusion. Again, check out Lk 13:28-29 as well.

Finally, it seems that the exclusion reached a climax in 70 AD as the Jews saw themselves shut down, and the invite extended to the Gentiles.

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Re: Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:15 am

Jaydam wrote: "Finally, it seems that the exclusion reached a climax in 70 AD as the Jews saw themselves shut down, and the invite extended to the Gentiles."

Hi Jaydam, the salvation of the Gentiles actually began about 5 years after Paul's conversion - Cornelius and his household around 38 A.D. to the "age ending event" of 70 A.D. As a Full Preterist, I see no futurism in the context of Matt 24:51 and this is why:

The second person pronoun, "YOU", refers to the Disciples who initiated the questions - seeking answers to the timing of the last days events:

a. When Is The Temple's Destruction?
b. What Will Be The Sign of Yeshua's Parousia?
c. When or What Will Be The Sign of The End of The Age?

For example; read vs. 44 "For this reason YOU also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when YOU do not think He will."

Therefore, whatever vs. 51 entails, it's consummation is definitively in the 1st Century, in the context of a, b, & c.

I do like your careful thought into an alternative meaning of the topic at hand :)

God Bless!

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Re: Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by jaydam » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:31 am

robbyyoung wrote: Hi Jaydam, the salvation of the Gentiles actually began about 5 years after Paul's conversion - Cornelius and his household around 38 A.D. to the "age ending event" of 70 A.D.
I can agree with this, the reason I see 70 AD as a climactic event.
robbyyoung wrote:As a Full Preterist, I see no futurism in the context of Matt 24:51 and this is why:
So you believe the hypocrites as well as the evil slave are already in the "place" of weeping and gnashing of teeth?
robbyyoung wrote:The second person pronoun, "YOU", refers to the Disciples who initiated the questions - seeking answers to the timing of the last days events:

a. When Is The Temple's Destruction?
b. What Will Be The Sign of Yeshua's Parousia?
c. When or What Will Be The Sign of The End of The Age?

For example; read vs. 44 "For this reason YOU also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when YOU do not think He will."

Therefore, whatever vs. 51 entails, it's consummation is definitively in the 1st Century, in the context of a, b, & c.
I agree with who the YOU is, and the implication it has on the timing of events. However, v51 uses the word "assign" which does not leave me fully assured the evil slave going to the place happened right then. It could be understood as "A spot is reserved for you when I eventually send you there."

That is if we are really talking about a place.
robbyyoung wrote:I do like your careful thought into an alternative meaning of the topic at hand :)

God Bless!
Thanks.

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Re: Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:50 am

jaydam wrote: So you believe the hypocrites as well as the evil slave are already in the "place" of weeping and gnashing of teeth?
Yes. This is referring to Old Covenant Israel and those who fell away from the faith, back into Judaism. Both of these subjects would have continued to follow feast day observances, ultimately trapping them in The City, at the time of The Parousia, and suffering the Wrath of God.
jaydam wrote:I agree with who the YOU is, and the implication it has on the timing of events. However, v51 uses the word "assign" which does not leave me fully assured the evil slave going to the place happened right then. It could be understood as "A spot is reserved for you when I eventually send you there."

That is if we are really talking about a place.


You said, "going to the place happened right then". If I'm understanding you correctly, the parable doesn't denote an immediate fulfillment of the Parousia, as Yeshua is giving it; if this is what you're suggesting. Verse 51 is the immediate derivative of vs.37, therefore, The Parousia will "cut off" the slave from "The Rapture", who persecutes Yeshua's Church, leaving him to suffer the wrathful judgement of The Parousia. This is where I think your alternative meaning makes a lot of sense.

Remember, most Christians were either killed during the timing of The Parousia or fled to the mountains leaving Judea altogether. Those left in The City, for whatever reason, suffered the Wrath of God as judgment was poured out. They wouldn't have heard or even remotely witnessed what The Faithful was promised, for they were trapped in The City. For it is outside of Jerusalem where "The Rapture" takes place for those who heeded the warnings, left Judea and remained faithful to the end.

God Bless!

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jaydam
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Re: Weeping and gnashing of teeth

Post by jaydam » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:34 pm

robbyyoung wrote:You said, "going to the place happened right then". If I'm understanding you correctly, the parable doesn't denote an immediate fulfillment of the Parousia, as Yeshua is giving it; if this is what you're suggesting. Verse 51 is the immediate derivative of vs.37, therefore, The Parousia will "cut off" the slave from "The Rapture", who persecutes Yeshua's Church, leaving him to suffer the wrathful judgement of The Parousia. This is where I think your alternative meaning makes a lot of sense.

Remember, most Christians were either killed during the timing of The Parousia or fled to the mountains leaving Judea altogether. Those left in The City, for whatever reason, suffered the Wrath of God as judgment was poured out. They wouldn't have heard or even remotely witnessed what The Faithful was promised, for they were trapped in The City. For it is outside of Jerusalem where "The Rapture" takes place for those who heeded the warnings, left Judea and remained faithful to the end.

God Bless!
A couple of thoughts:

I find myself aligning more deeply with preterism as I see more and more evidence that language obviously related to 70 AD from the gospels (ie. birth pangs - Mt 24) are picked up later in the NT (ie. labor pains - 1Th 5). Another example being - "he is at the door" (Mt 24) and "the judge is standing right at the door" (Ja 5).

Along the same line of similar wordings would then be the idea that one is cast into outer darkness (gospels) and then Paul's inference to those who find themselves in darkness (1Th 5:4ff). Same word in both places for darkness - skotos.

All of this to say that I am now convinced that the place of outer darkness and/or the place with weeping and gnashing of teeth is not so much about being sent to a literal place as many would consider it to refer to hell, and as I have been taught. Rather it is about a situation. Or rather than a place, it is a case. Thus, again I find the Hebrews 7:8 translation of the phrase more appropriate.

The best analogy I can come up with is if I was to be caught in a rainstorm, I run to my car and attempt to get in, but find I have locked my keys inside my car. I am locked out of my car, and stuck in the rain. Yes, I find myself in an unpleasant situation which leaves me in an unpleasant place, but it is not because I was actively placed where I currently am, rather I cannot actively be in the place I wish to be - dry, inside my car. My resulting present location is simply a passive or secondary result of the situation I find myself it. This may seem like a splitting of hairs to some, but it seems somewhat a big deal to me because it refutes those who say the place of outer darkness is hell, a place where God will actively send the sinners. Instead, the place of outer darkness is not a primary destination, but the result of not being able to reach the desired destination.

Does that make sense to anybody?

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