Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

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RickC
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Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by RickC » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:32 am

This thread isn't meant to specifically be about Views of Hell (or of Heaven); it's about post-mortem judgment with reference to Heb 9:27,28.

In my studies of the various views of after-life-judgment and the consequences of the same, my views have changed over the years, being raised in a dispensationalist environment, accepting the views of of the same (by default), and eventually coming to see the Conditionalist (or Annihilationist, or Conditional Immortality) view as the best or most acceptable view in terms of scripture. It has been or was(?) my default position over the last seven years or so. I say "was(?)" because I'm essentially agnostic these days as I continue my studies.

Related to how my opinions have morphed would be: 'preterism' in general. From Latin, praeteritus, meaning: "having gone by, occurred, obtained, i.e., fulfilled, has happened." Studying what has been fulfilled -- and what is yet to come -- is what we all do.

Getting to the topic: while I don't see myself as a full-preterist, I've come to understand how they came to believe as they do (largely from posters on this forum). I've always attempted to interpret scripture with the least about of bias possible. Again, 'something we all do or at least should try to do.

I've come to understand how many, and possibly most, texts that have been traditionally taken to refer to post-mortem judgment -- in our future -- are probably about a (or the) judgment of God against rebellious Jerusalem, circa 70AD. Some of these seem undeniable, as most would agree (even dispensationalists to a degree).

Hebrews 9:27, 28 (and most specifically v. 27) are two verses that have seemed to give irrefutable support to an after-life judgment.

(These verses are the only ones that I can currently think of to support the view -- in a 'seemingly irrefutable way' -- that would be)!!!

As always, however, I tend to question everything!

Thus . . . .
-----------------

The topic: Does Heb 9:27,28 teach (say) there is a post-mortem judgment?

Heb 9 (ASV, a more literal translation)
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this [cometh] judgment;
28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.


The "[cometh]" is equivalent to how some versions italicize words (in translation) which are not in the Greek.

Another example with the italics, MLT (Modern Literal Translation)
Heb 9:27And inasmuch as it is laid up for men to die once and after this is the judgment;

I'm not a Greek expert, but have sent possible alternate translations to a friend who knows Greek and teaches Religious Studies at Rutgers. He hasn't had time to reply. Here are two possible renderings:

(More literal)
Heb 9:27 and in as much as it is apportioned to men once to die, moreover, with this judgment;
28 thus, also the Christ, having once been offered in order to
bear the sins of the many, from a second time, separate from sin, will
appear to those of his awaiting -- unto salvation.


(Old Living Bible Style)
Heb 9:27 as every one of us will die, which is our death penalty for sinning;
28 so also Christ came the first time to bear the sins of many people, and he will appear again to those whose sin is gone and they will be saved.


If my limited knowledge of Greek has any merit or potential; with these two verses, it could be that they do not refer to post-mortem judgment.

Thanks for reading! :)
Any opinions?
Last edited by RickC on Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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RickC
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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by RickC » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:00 am

Add-On: If my translations are possibly accurate, the meaning(s) of Heb 9:27, 28 would, of course, be non-tradtional. I've considered what these meanings might, or could, be but haven't posted them. I may or may not, depending on how close my translations are, or if any discussion happens, etc., etc.

Thanks! :)

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RickC
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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by RickC » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:27 am

P.S.S. I've edited the OP (and almost always do that, duh)! So some of you readers may want to reread it now. :)

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Homer
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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by Homer » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:53 pm

Hi Rick,

Resurrection and judgment seem to go hand-in-hand. Do you have the same uncertainity about the texts that speak of a resurrection? What would your thoughts be regarding a post resurrection state of being without a judgment?

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TheEditor
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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by TheEditor » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:58 pm

Hi Rick,

Not sure that I can offer much, but to my plain reading, I see a parallelism in Jesus coming the first time.

"And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment, so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation." (Hebrews 9:27-28)

The similarity being drawn to the "once" aspect of death and the "once" aspect of Christ's sacrifice. He comes again "apart from sin", that is, without coming again as a sacrifice, to those looking to him for salvation. He came literally the first time for a sacrifice, I would expect the same for the "second time", but what do I know.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by Singalphile » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:50 pm

I haven't been interested in the full preterist issue for a while, nor do I have any knowledge of Greek, but as a disinterested observer, I would just say that I'm not exactly sure what all you changed and why you changed it. The Bible translations seem to be pretty consistent in these two verses, so what is it that you think they got wrong?
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by dwilkins » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:45 am

For precision's sake, it's worth noting that 9:28 doesn't say Christ will come a second time. It says that he will appear a second time for those awaiting salvation. Given the tone of the entire chapter or so (which is the mechanics of the heavenly temple) I think it's possible that this has more to do with believers seeing Christ a second time at his judgment seat where he will offer them salvation. Since the term parousia is more properly understood as "ongoing presence" as opposed to arrival (which would be erchomai) Young's Literal Translation is careful to differentiate between the two. I think being careful in this way helps us see that a number of the parousia passages have to do with finally being in God's presence at some point future form the writing of the various epistles. These are images of being in the throne room of God at the final judgement, not of being on the ground and seeing Christ bursting through the clouds.

Some examples of parousia in a judgment scene context might be:

1Th 2:19 for what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? are not even ye before our Lord Jesus Christ in his presence?

1Th 3:13 to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification before our God and Father, in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

1Th 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

2Th 2:1 And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,
2Th 2:9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
[Daniel 7 describes this as happening at a judgment scene in heaven, and Rev. 19 and 20 has this as being thrown into the Lake of Fire, certainly a non-earthly thing]

Does this shed any different light on the point you were trying to make?

Doug

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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by TheEditor » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:38 am

Hi Doug,

You'll keep in mind I hope my JW reaing when I :lol: at this parousia notion. It amazes me that dispensationalists and preterists alike can make such a big deal out of a word that was used in order to shore up diametrically opposed ideas. To me, having been weaned on this distinction, I now see that approach as the error that it is. Parousia, epiphaneia, apokalypsis, and erchomai are essentially interchangeable terms. When Jesus "erchomai" or "elthon" to Peter's house in the Gospel, was he not already "parousia"? Is Jesus not "parousia" with His disciples since Matthew 28? Consider the following (NWT citations):


On the contrary, go on rejoicing forasmuch as you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory. --1 Peter 4:13

Moreover, may the Lord cause you to increase, yes, make you abound, in love to one another and to all, even as we also do to you; to the end that he may make your hearts firm, unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the presence of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones. --1 Thessalonians 3:12-13

I give you orders that you observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. This manifestation the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. --1 Timothy 6:13-15

In this fact you are greatly rejoicing, though for a little while at present, if it must be, you have been grieved by various trials, in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being proved by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. --1 Peter 1:6-8

So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence. --1 John 2:28

So that you do not fall short in any gift at all, while you are eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. He will also make you firm to the end, that you may be open to no accusation in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. --1 Corinthians 1:7-8

Exercise patience, therefore, brothers, until the presence of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until he gets the early rain and the late rain. You too exercise patience; make your hearts firm, because the presence of the Lord has drawn close.” — James 5:7-8

I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom. -- 2 Timothy 4:1

For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. --1 Corinthians 15:22-23

Hence brace up your minds for activity, keep your senses completely; set your hope upon the undeserved kindness that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. --1 Peter 1:13-14

To you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God. --2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

Instructing us to repudiate ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of the Savior of us, Christ Jesus --Titus 2:12-13

For what is our hope or joy or crown of exultation—why, is it not in fact you?—before our Lord Jesus at his presence? --1 Thessalonians 2:19


The idea conveyed in the words of Paul, John and etc would not be changed meaningfully if the words parousia, apokalypsis and epiphaneia and the words used in English for each of these were switched around.

For example, we are told to be faithful "until the revelation of Jesus Christ" by Peter at 1 Peter 1:13-14. Paul however told Titus to be faithful and wait for the "glorious manifestation" of God and Christ. Still furhter, James tells us to wait patiently for the "parousia" as the final goal--Paul did as well at 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13. What's more, at 1 John 2:28, John admonishes those to remain in union with Christ until "he is made manifest" so they will not be "shamed away at his presence," and he makes no distinction at all between "made manifest" and "presence".

All of these words are presented as the ultimate goal.

I have also wondered occasionally why JWs (since they think Jesus already is "present") and Preterists (who think his "arrival" was in the 1st Century) still observe the Lord's Evening Meal, since we are only told to do so "until He arrives"....

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by RickC » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:41 am

Greetings,

I won't have time to reply for a day or so.
But thanks for your input & have a good week! :)

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Re: Heb 9:27,28: An Alternate Translation?

Post by Paidion » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:18 pm

Here is my personal interlinear of Heb 9:27

και καθ'——— οσον—— αποκεται —— τοις ανθρωποις αταξ αποθανειν μετα δε τουτο κρισις
and even as whoever it is reserved for —people—— once to die——— after but this judgment...

And here is my personal translation:

And even as it is reserved for people whosoever, once to die, but after this—judgment...

The preposition μετα means "with" if followed by the genitive case, but in the verse above it is followed by the accusative case, τουτο, and therefore must be translated as "after".

For some unknown reason, all Bible versions I have consulted leave the word "οσον" (whoever or whosoever) untranslated.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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