Purpose of Hell & Character of God

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Homer
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Re: Purpose of Hell & Character of God

Post by Homer » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:44 pm

I asked:
If the purpose of hell is the elimination of sin, what scripture(s) explicitly state this?
I didn't expect there would be an answer. Seems to me that the cross is "the power unto salvation" not hell; that God's solution to sin is the cross of Christ:

Hebrews 9:26 (NASB)

26. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.


What I was interested in was in seeing any scriptural statement of this kind that speaks of hell as being a place where sinners are converted and sin "put away".
It (sin) maintains its dominion over its slaves in hell, inspiring eternal hatred in them toward God.
But I thought the universalist position was that hell changed them into lovers of God.

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steve
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Re: Purpose of Hell & Character of God

Post by steve » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:59 pm

Seems to me that the cross is "the power unto salvation" not hell; that God's solution to sin is the cross of Christ
Technically, Paul said it is the Gospel that is "the power of God unto salvation" (Rom.1:16). Whether the "Good tidings which shall be for all people" (Luke 2:10) actually is a message that includes the salvation of "all people" or not seems to be what is debated.
What I was interested in was in seeing any scriptural statement of this kind that speaks of hell as being a place where sinners are converted and sin "put away".
Oh, I did not realize that this was your question. It is not how you stated it. Here's how you asked: "If the purpose of hell is the elimination of sin, what scripture(s) explicitly state this?" Since it had just previously been said that both annihilation and reconciliation would have the effect of eliminating sin, and you asked for scripture concerning the latter, it was not obvious that you were pinpointing one of the two.
But I thought the universalist position was that hell changed them into lovers of God.
Yes, that is the universalist position. I was describing the traditional view, as I thought the context would have made clear.

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Homer
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Re: Purpose of Hell & Character of God

Post by Homer » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:26 pm

But I thought the universalist position was that hell changed them into lovers of God.
Yes, that is the universalist position. I was describing the traditional view, as I thought the context would have made clear.
But what is the difference if they are in hell, whether the traditional view or universalist view is correct? Would it be that those in hell in the universalist scenario are informed that if they repent they will get out? If they are not made aware of this, wouldn't their situation, as you say, inspire eternal hatred in them toward God just the same as the traditional view? And if they are informed that they can get out, wouldn't that be the ultimate "ticket out of hell" scenario, with all possible doubt of truth erased?

So many holes in UR.

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steve
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Re: Purpose of Hell & Character of God

Post by steve » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:23 am

But what is the difference if they are in hell, whether the traditional view or universalist view is correct?
Huh? Isn't it obvious? The difference is like day and night. Under the traditional view, hell inspires eternal hatred toward God in the sinner; under the reconciliation view, hell has the opposite effect. What similarities are you seeing here?
Would it be that those in hell in the universalist scenario are informed that if they repent they will get out?
Why would that be a factor? True repentance is not opportunistic. Manasseh repented in prison (2 Chron.33:10-13). There is no reason to believe that anyone had told him that such repentance would procure his release. Though he certainly wished for release and restoration to his homeland, there was no guarantee given to him of such a release. The chastisement itself, without promises attached, seems to have brought about his repentance.

If hell is designed to bring reformation, then I would expect it to be suited to that purpose. Why would it inspire eternal hatred of God? The two thieves on crosses on either side of Christ were experiencing a living hell, which they apparently deserved. It did not lead them both to hate God. One of them knew he was getting what he deserved, and repented. The other may also have repented at the rebuke of his friend, though we aren't told. It isn't implausible. In any case, we see that a man can come to true repentance and love for Christ while suffering a just penalty.

There is no reason that the execution of a just penalty would necessarily inspire hatred toward a just judge. I don't know where traditionalists are getting this idea—certainly not from anything in scripture. Does a father's discipline of his children cause them to hate him?

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Homer
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Re: Purpose of Hell & Character of God

Post by Homer » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:38 am

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
Huh? Isn't it obvious? The difference is like day and night. Under the traditional view, hell inspires eternal hatred toward God in the sinner; under the reconciliation view, hell has the opposite effect. What similarities are you seeing here?
I'm struggling to understand your view. What we believe about hell does not change what it is. You had said that hell would inspire hatred toward God, if the traditional view is correct. What is there about the nature of hell that is different (day and night) in the universalist view? I can not think of anything in the scriptures that would inform us of this difference (same lake of fire in any case). The only thing I can think of that would be a difference would be the knowledge of a way out if those there will repent.

Thanks for your patience in this matter.

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steve
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Re: Purpose of Hell & Character of God

Post by steve » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:51 am

Hi Homer,

I see where the confusion has come in. You thought that I was saying that the eternality of the torment would inspire hatred of God. What I said (or intended to say) was that on the assumptions of the traditional view, hell perpetuates man's hatred of God eternally. It is a common claim of traditionalists. They are not saying that the eternality of the torment is what makes sinners hate God, but that they hate God already, and are preserved consciously in that hatred forever.

My statement was: "Sin remains in full vigor, unimpeded, in the traditional hell. It maintains its dominion over its slaves in hell, inspiring eternal hatred in them toward God."

Notice, I said it is the dominion of sin, not hell, that is said to inspire hatred for God—it is the traditional hell that prolongs this forever. Neither the traditionalist nor I, when representing them, suggest that the specific duration of the torment inspires the hatred. It is simply that the hatred continues unabated as long as they are conscious in hell.

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Homer
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Re: Purpose of Hell & Character of God

Post by Homer » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:21 pm

Steve,

Thanks for your reply; I understand your point. In this long discussion about hell I have talked little about my own view. I am uncertain whether annihilation or an eternal hell is correct; I can see scriptures that support each. However, to me, the so-called traditional view of hell is a straw man in a sense. Even while arguing the finality of the last judgment, I never believed hell was a literal lake of fire, but believed that description and those similar are symbolic. I have held the separation or "outer darkness" view. I doubt whether many in hell, if any, will primarily be full of hate toward God. I see it rather as being a place of remorse and regret. An old hymn sums it up rather well for me:

Standing Outside (sung slowly)

Judgment is surely coming,
coming to you and me;
we will be judged that morning
for all eternity;
some will go into heaven, others will be denied; will you be in that number
standing outside?
Knowing that with the demons ever you shall abide;
Never to share the beauties, waiting the sanctified,
O what an awful picture,
standing outside.

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