Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

Todd,

So to describe all non-believers as "self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil" is not really a valid statement in almost all cases.

An unbeliever is by definition someone who has rejected the truth, and is therefore following evil (whether they are conscious of it or not).

You are either following Jesus, or you are following the devil. Most people are not following Jesus.

By these statements, I do not mean to say that everything an unbeliever does is evil, or that everything they do is self seeking. But the bible seems to portray humans in their unregenerate state as self seeking by nature. We are born selfish. Jesus has said that we are "evil" (Lk 11:13). Once we are born again we begin a life of fighting this nature, and walking in the Spirit.

It has been my experience that people are generally good most of the time.

What is your defintion of "good"? I think this will clear up a lot. What is your basis for comparison? Jesus' was God (Matt. 19:17).

By the same token, Christians suffer with being self-seeking sometimes too.

I stated earlier, regarding Christians:

Even if a Christian has a weak walk and falls into these sins often, (self-seeking, etc.), he will repent, and will keep getting back up and working at it.

This may not be universally true, but it is normative in the Christian life.

We seem to think that "Judgment Day" is all about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

In my opinion, that is what the bible teaches in Rev. 20. I also do not think that God would punish Jesus, and us for our sin. (I am aware that you will disagree that Jesus died for our sins, so you will not agree with my last statement) Again, that's why the bible says that He is "just" to forgive our sins (1 Jn 1:9); because Jesus has obtained this forgiveness at the cross.

What I'm trying to propose is that perhaps these judgment verses have been misapplied.

I really appreciate your searching spirit Todd. Although I disagree, it seems, with almost everthing you say you have helped me grow a lot.

God bless you!

[Guest]

An unbeliever is by definition someone who has rejected the truth, and is therefore following evil (whether they are conscious of it or not).

Derek,

The vast majority of unbelievers have never heard the truth; therefore, they could not have rejected it.

What is your defintion of "good"? I think this will clear up a lot. What is your basis for comparison? Jesus' was God (Matt. 19:17).

My definition of good is any activity that could be described as "bearing one another's burdens" or "love your neighbor as yourself." It could also be random acts of kindness, treating others with respect, giving your time or money to worthy charitable causes, etc. Many unbelievers are involved in activities such as these.

I also do not think that God would punish Jesus, and us for our sin.

This is what I believe 2 Cor 5:10 says. Each person will receive for the things done while in the body whether good or bad. This seems plain to me. The fact that Paul says that God shows no favoritism indicates that it applies to believers and non-believers alike.

Rom 2:2-3
2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

Heb 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

(I am aware that you will disagree that Jesus died for our sins, so you will not agree with my last statement)

Jesus forgave sins while during his earthly ministry (Matt 9:6, Luke 7:48 ). He had not yet died; therefore, it was not necessary that he die in order to forgive.

I really appreciate your searching spirit Todd. Although I disagree, it seems, with almost everthing you say Smile you have helped me grow a lot.

Thanks, Derek. I have been in a "challenge the status quo" mode for about two years now. I have grown alot too. I post my thoughts and I can count on you, Homer, Sean, Steve, Paidion, Steve7150, and others to challenge me right back. It makes for a lot of thinking and searching. I try not to sound too dogmatic knowing that I may change my mind.

Todd

[Guest]

I have read comments several times on this forum that those who reject Christ in this life will have the same attitude once they are resurrected. Why would someone come to this conclusion? Do you not think that going through death and the destruction of the flesh may serve to change someone's attitude? It could be that death is the great purifier that is required to bring about willing subjection to Christ. Isn't death the wages of sin?...or is it death plus torment in hell?

Todd

I don't think a resurrected person will be able to change their mind. I believe the resurrection takes place just before the judgment. In other words, now is the favorable time of salvation. When the resurrection occurs, there will be no more testing. We will be standing before the judge.

Hi Sean,

I certainly understand what you are saying here. ...that we only have this life to determine our eternity. But there are some real questions that must be answered if this is true. The first one is the one that Steve7150 asked: Does everyone have an equal opportunity to believe the Gospel in this life? Most people in the world never hear it at all; others hear a perverted version of it. Some grow up in Christian homes while others live in obscurity.

The next question is about the judgment criteria. Every verse that you read regarding the judgment says that it is all about works. If you do good you will be rewarded, if you do evil you will be punished. This is what the Bible says.

According to the traditional view, believers suffer no punishment and non-believers suffer eternal punishment. According to the traditional view, believers reap only rewards and non-believers receive only punishment. Is this true? That is not what I read in these verses...

Rom 2:6-11
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

According to these verses believers and non-believers are judged by the same criteria - our works - and we are rewarded and punished accordingly. There is not even a hint here of "imputed righteousness" providing some kind of escape for believers. This fact leads me to believe that the traditional view of these verses is not valid. It appears that this judgment is not about heaven or hell, its about rewards and punishments for all of humanity based on our works. That is what it says.

Todd

First, I was not discussing the destination of people who never heard the Gospel (as per your point #1)

Second, I believe your point #2 answers point #1, (I agree with you) we will all be judged according to what we have done, NOT if we have heard the Gospel.

Although hearing the Gospel does lead to regeneration in those who believe and condemnation to those who reject it. John records that people hate the light because their deeds are evil, they will not come to the light. In other words their deeds determine weather or not they come to Christ. If they love their evil works they will not repent of them when the Gospel declares them to. Jesus also spoke of those who would not have been guilty if He would not have come and brought "light" (John 9:41)

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

So if someone dies without hearing the Gospel but they are people who "do the truth" then I don't believe they will be condemned. They would have believed if they heard it, since what they have done has been "done in God".

Just something to think about.

[Guest]

First, I was not discussing the destination of people who never heard the Gospel (as per your point #1)

Second, I believe your point #2 answers point #1, (I agree with you) we will all be judged according to what we have done, NOT if we have heard the Gospel.

Although hearing the Gospel does lead to regeneration in those who believe and condemnation to those who reject it. John records that people hate the light because their deeds are evil, they will not come to the light. In other words their deeds determine weather or not they come to Christ. If they love their evil works they will not repent of them when the Gospel declares them to. Jesus also spoke of those who would not have been guilty if He would not have come and brought "light" (John 9:41)

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

So if someone dies without hearing the Gospel but they are people who "do the truth" then I don't believe they will be condemned. They would have believed if they heard it, since what they have done has been "done in God".

Just something to think about.

Hi Sean,

Thanks for your reply. I am encouraged by your reply here that we may be finding some common ground. I agree that those who love their evil deeds and hate the light will suffer God's punishment. And he who "does the truth" will come to the light [and reap their reward].

Regarding the Light that came to the world; would that be speaking of Christ himself, or of His message, or perhaps the ministry of the Holy Spirit, or all of the above? So, therefore, if the Holy Spirit was sent to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8 ) is it possible that those who "do the truth" are encouraged to do so by the work of the Spirit? If so, would they be considered obedient to the light and therefore justified in God's sight?

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Heb 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Therefore, if we obey the Spirit of God [the Light] which is at work in the world, and it is evident in our works that they are "done in God," we will find justification and "eternal salvation."

This is my current thinking regarding all of mankind. Comments are appreciated.

Todd

[Guest]

So if someone dies without hearing the Gospel but they are people who "do the truth" then I don't believe they will be condemned. They would have believed if they heard it, since what they have done has been "done in God".



Constructive thought, but not being condemned because they would have believed IMO is still not the same thing as actually believing and following Christ.
I think there still would be unfinished business left.

[Guest]

So if someone dies without hearing the Gospel but they are people who "do the truth" then I don't believe they will be condemned. They would have believed if they heard it, since what they have done has been "done in God".



Constructive thought, but not being condemned because they would have believed IMO is still not the same thing as actually believing and following Christ.
I think there still would be unfinished business left.

How would they be any different than all those who lived before Jesus came? Or those who die very young?

In other words, does salvation require something on our part? Or is justification given to "all men" (Romans 5). If it's something given to all men first, then it is something that can later rejected. Then the Gospel is something that may be a tool used to bring people back to God.

It's possible that regeneration is something unique and seperate from justification, and applies differently to different people.

Therefore, if we obey the Spirit of God [the Light] which is at work in the world, and it is evident in our works that they are "done in God," we will find justification and "eternal salvation."

Todd

Maybe

[Guest]

How would they be any different than all those who lived before Jesus came? Or those who die very young?

In other words, does salvation require something on our part? Or is justification given to "all men" (Romans 5). If it's something given to all men first, then it is something that can later rejected. Then the Gospel is something that may be a tool used to bring people back to God.


Where in Romans 5 does it say justification is given to all men. I see Paul using the word "many" and i think his letter is directed to Paul's brethren so when he says "we" he means fellow believers.
Since Jesus came things have changed because light has come into the world and men loved the darkness. And Jesus said to preach the gospel to every creature therefore not knowing the gospel but just doing good will not justify us or there would be no reason to believe in Jesus as Lord.
And there is something for us to do as part of our salvation because in Luke 13 Jesus said to STRIVE to get through the narrow door. Striving takes effort.
However IMHO the lake of fire is the great equalizer where the great majority of humanity will be saved through fire and brimstone including children.

[Guest]

Where in Romans 5 does it say justification is given to all men.

It says it in verse 18:

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. NASB

I see Paul using the word "many" and i think his letter is directed to Paul's brethren so when he says "we" he means fellow believers.

[i]19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. NASB [/i]

Even here, he doesn't say "many" but "the many".

Through one man's disobedience (Adam's), "the many" (all other people) were made sinners. Through one man's obedience (Christ's), "the many" (all other people) will be made righteous.

Another clear reference for universal reconciliation.

[Guest]

i]19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. NASB [/i]

Even here, he doesn't say "many" but "the many".

Through one man's disobedience (Adam's), "the many" (all other people) were made sinners. Through one man's obedience (Christ's), "the many" (all other people) will be made righteous.

Another clear reference for universal reconciliation.


Thanks Paidion, you're right it is a clear reference to universal reconciliation. Paul is beginning to sound like the first Christian universalist.

[Guest]

i]19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. NASB [/i]

Even here, he doesn't say "many" but "the many".

Through one man's disobedience (Adam's), "the many" (all other people) were made sinners. Through one man's obedience (Christ's), "the many" (all other people) will be made righteous.

Another clear reference for universal reconciliation.


Thanks Paidion, you're right it is a clear reference to universal reconciliation. Paul is beginning to sound like the first Christian universalist.

Hmm, the question is, can someone reject this reconciliation? I believe the bible says they can.