Church fathers view on hell

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Alex719
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Church fathers view on hell

Post by Alex719 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:55 am

Can someone give me a list of church fathers that did not hold to the eternal torment view of hell?
Last edited by Alex719 on Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Paidion
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Paidion » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:49 am

Do you mean eternal torment? If so, let's start with Origen:
[Isa. I. II ... 'the fire which you have kindled'.] This seems to indicate that the individual sinner kindles the flame of his persona! fire and that he is not plunged into some fire kindled by another, ... God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician ... the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health De Principiis, II.x.4,6
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PR
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by PR » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:22 pm

Hi Alex, maybe this will help answer your question. Here's several quotes I found from some of the Church fathers. Are they accurate? The authenticity of some may be debatable. Take a look, you can decide for yourself what view they held:

Ignatius of Antioch

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

Justin Martyr

No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (ibid. 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Athenagoras

We [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated [/u](Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.... [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortally by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . , For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire," they will be damned forever (Against Heresies 4:28:2 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus

Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: "Just is your judgment!" And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (Octavius 34:12-5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike; For if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

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steve
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by steve » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:54 pm

Most of these quotes illustrate how far beyond scripture the teachers of the church have historically been willing to go, in their speculations, in order to frighten non-Christians. Those few of the above quotes which make use only of biblical terminology (Ignatius, Clement and Martyrdom of Polycarp, Irenaeus) do not affirm eternal conscious torment. In general, with the exception of Justin, the earliest fathers in the list did not affirm this doctrine. Their use of the biblical terminology cannot be proven to mean anything more than what the same terminology meant when used by the biblical writers themselves. Eternal torment is not the only—nor the most exegetically well-established—view on this subject that the biblical witnesses provide.

The later writers, who affirm this doctrine, exhibit their independence from scripture by the use of non-biblical expressions, like:

"the eternal sentence of fire"

"clothed in eternal sensibility'

"God has not made us...that we should perish and be annihilated "

"detained in everlasting fire"

"a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain"

"That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them"

"nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end"

"Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies"

"The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual"

" he shall receive an eternal body...that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed."

These phrases present a gruesome wrath, poured out from a relentlessly angry god (one which is nowhere described in scripture). What these statements all have in common is their addition of non-biblical terminology to affirm what the bible nowhere affirms.

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Homer
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Homer » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:27 pm

Steve,

You wrote:
Most of these quotes illustrate how far beyond scripture the teachers of the church have historically been willing to go, in their speculations, in order to frighten non-Christians.
Speculation:
"the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence."

If those early church fathers engaged in speculation about hell, what are we to say about the universalist claim that people will go into hell and be rehabilitated, repent, and be saved? The earliest of the fathers had numerous NT statements that legitimately can be understood to speak of either eternal punishment or annihilation. Perhaps the early fathers' evidence wasn't firm enough to form a conclusion on the matter but the universalist idea of salvation in hell doesn't even rise to the level of speculation as there is nothing in the scripture describing such a scenario.

We can not say the early fathers misunderstood the meaning of aionios, seeing that it was their native tongue.

And speaking of frightening non-Christians, Jesus seems too have made a regular practice of it.

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steve
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by steve » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:26 am

Hi Homer,
You wrote:
Speculation:
"the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence."
If "firm evidence" is required, then to hold any view of hell must be recognized as "speculative." In scripture, there is "evidence" for all three views—somewhat less for the traditional view than for the others, but still some evidence. If "firm" evidence means "conclusive" evidence, then nothing better than speculation is to had on this subject.
If those early church fathers engaged in speculation about hell, what are we to say about the universalist claim that people will go into hell and be rehabilitated, repent, and be saved?
We can say it is speculative. In terms of plain, declarative statements from scripture, we can't claim certainty that there will be post-mortem opportunities to repent—any more than we can claim certainty that there will be no such opportunities. The Bible affirms neither proposition. In that sense, both views are equally speculative. However, a greater confidence in one or the other proposition may be justified by examining how each view might be harmonized with the immense biblical data that speaks clearly about the character of God.
The earliest of the fathers had numerous NT statements that legitimately can be understood to speak of either eternal punishment or annihilation.
They had the same number as we have—no more, no less. There is no guarantee that they were better exegetes of the available biblical material than are modern readers. True Bereans, today, even in the face of certain patristic testimony, must search the scriptures to see if these things are so.
Perhaps the early fathers' evidence wasn't firm enough to form a conclusion on the matter but the universalist idea of salvation in hell doesn't even rise to the level of speculation as there is nothing in the scripture describing such a scenario.
Apparently, the evidence was not "firm" enough to inform any consensus among the early fathers on this subject. No consensus existed.

However, your suggestion that "there is nothing in scripture" from which to derive the restorationist view of hell is very naive. You should tell that to Origen, who was not only a universalist, but was (and is) "universally" recognized as one of the greatest scriptural experts of the first three centuries of Christianity. I do not know a church historian, of any theological persuasion, who does not name Origen as the greatest theologian of the church prior to Augustine.

If you have read my book, as you say you have, you would have found that there is a wealth of biblical data from which to derive such restorationist conclusions. If we find that data unpersuasive, that does not entitle us to say that it is not there for others to find persuasive—many of whom are far more qualified as judges than ourselves.

Honesty requires that we admit that Christians of equal stature and competence have found the evidence for each of the alternative views unpersuasive also. This does not entitle them to pretend that those who hold the other views have "nothing in scripture" upon which to base their beliefs.
We can not say the early fathers misunderstood the meaning of aionios, seeing that it was their native tongue.
It is interesting, though, that the fathers who rejected eternal conscous torment were the ones who spole Koine Greek (i.e., New Testament Greek) as their native language, while it was primarily the Latin fathers (like Augustine, who admitted that he could not read Greek) who championed the eternal conscious torment view.
And speaking of frightening non-Christians, Jesus seems too have made a regular practice of it.
I wonder where? When Jesus taught about Gehenna, He was usually (probably in all cases, but one) talking to His own disciples. There is good reason for unbelievers to be afraid, and such a fact is not absent from Christ's teachings—though it was not the most prominent theme in His preaching to the lost. We are told that, when He was evangelizing, His topic was the "good news of the Kingdom of God" (Mark 1:14-15; Matt.24:14). His message was, therefore, primarily positive (unless "good news" can be regarded as negative).

There is much to be feared in the prospect of falling into the hands of the living God. Even believers are encouraged to fear God (Matt.10:28; 1 Peter 1:17). I fear God, but I do not fear hell (since my fear of God is not the same as a fear of hell). The apostles never seemed to see a need for employing the fear of hell in any of their recorded preaching to unbelievers.

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Homer
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:16 am

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response.

I wrote:
And speaking of frightening non-Christians, Jesus seems too have made a regular practice of it.
And you responded:
I wonder where? When Jesus taught about Gehenna, He was usually (probably in all cases, but one) talking to His own disciples.
I do not want to belabor the point as it isn't the main issue. I'm thinking you mean "in all cases but one" as a reference to the sermon on the mount but you do not need to go far to find other examples. In Matthew 11:24 Jesus threatened the people of three cities with a worse fate than Sodom, a clear reference to hell. If hell is a place of reformation how would it be worse than Sodom? And these words, as in the SOM, were spoken to the multitude (11:7). Again in Matthew 13 we find the parable of the tares being burned up was again spoken to the multitude, in v.34 Matthew informs us "all these things Jesus spoke to the multitudes".

You wrote:
In terms of plain, declarative statements from scripture, we can't claim certainty that there will be post-mortem opportunities to repent—any more than we can claim certainty that there will be no such opportunities.
There are plain statements in scripture affirming an awful fate for those who will not repent. The just referenced parable of the tares being just one example. We have numerous references to those going into hell and the terrible consequences that await them. There is nothing in the scriptures describing conversion in hell and a happy thereafter. The universalist has no license to preach or proclaim their message.

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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by steve » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:45 am

Hi Homer,

You wrote:
I'm thinking you mean "in all cases but one" as a reference to the sermon on the mount but you do not need to go far to find other examples.
I said what I meant (this is my general practice). In all the passages about Gehenna, only one is known to have been addressed to an unbelieving audience. I am referring to Matthew 23:33. The Sermon on the Mount was addressed to the disciples (see Matthew 5:1-2; cf., Luke 6:20). There are references to the final judgment of the Last Day in other passages, as you observed, though this is not to be equated with Gehenna, which Jesus said was to be the fate of the apostate Jews in His own generation (Matt.24:33, 36).
There are plain statements in scripture affirming an awful fate for those who will not repent. The just referenced parable of the tares being just one example. We have numerous references to those going into hell and the terrible consequences that await them.


This is acknowledged by all three views of hell, so what is your point?
There is nothing in the scriptures describing conversion in hell and a happy thereafter. The universalist has no license to preach or proclaim their message.
As I said, there is equally nothing in the scriptures denying such post-mortem conversions. Therefore, the deniers have no license to preach or proclaim their respective messages either.

Of course, the message all of us are called to preach and proclaim has little or nothing to do with any view of hell, so I am not sure why you would forbid restorationists, any more than other evangelicals, to preach and proclaim the gospel.

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Homer
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Homer » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:49 am

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
I said what I meant (this is my general practice). In all the passages about Gehenna, only one is known to have been addressed to an unbelieving audience. I am referring to Matthew 23:33.
You seem to have overlooked Luke 6:12-17, where we are informed that the audience for the SOM was the twelve (them), the other disciples, and a great throng of people. I can find no commentator who does not hold the view of these three categories in the audience.

12. It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God. 13. And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles: 14. Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James and John; and Philip and Bartholomew; 15. and Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot; 16. Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

17. Jesus came down with them and stood on a level place; and there was a large crowd of His disciples, and a great throng of people from all Judea and Jerusalem and the coastal region of Tyre and Sidon, 18. who had come to hear Him....
As I said, there is equally nothing in the scriptures denying such post-mortem conversions. Therefore, the deniers have no license to preach or proclaim their respective messages either.

Of course, the message all of us are called to preach and proclaim has little or nothing to do with any view of hell, so I am not sure why you would forbid restorationists, any more than other evangelicals, to preach and proclaim the gospel.
I have no problem with the preaching of the gospel by all who do so. But repentance and salvation in hell is not part of the gospel. All agree that the lost wind up in hell, the faithful preacher will leave it at that. You appear to imply that you can preach what is not in the scriptures while taking exception to the early fathers "use of non-biblical expressions" in their attempt to exegete the scriptures. I think it would be wonderful if all who preach and teach would use strictly scriptural expressions but I would be surprised if any can be found who consistently do so, and many who do so hardly at all.

When a scripture is spoken to people, their ideas of what is said vary. If the speaker tries to inform the people of what the scripture says, in his own words, they again form their own ideas of what is said and we are now two steps removed from the scriptures, and on it goes. Many bad doctrines have come from this.

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Paidion
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Paidion » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:04 pm

With regards to the request of the original post, consider this very large list of early church fathers quotes, quotes that affirmed deliverance and healing rather than eternal punishment:

http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
Last edited by Paidion on Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion

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