Church fathers view on hell

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steve
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by steve » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:46 pm

I wrote:
Neither view can be proven conclusively, but, if wrong, the traditional doctrine slanders a good God by making Him a monster.
Homer replied:
If the traditional view makes God a monster, and if the traditional view turns out to be true, will you say to God He is a monster? Why not? I would not want to be so bold as to make your argument as above.
Think about it. On the assumption that the view is wrong, then there is no god with such unrelenting hatred for his creatures as that which the traditional view. My statement was conditioned by the condition "if [the traditional view is] wrong".

If there is not, and never was such a vindictive god as that, would it not be fair to describe any hypothetical god, who had the same policies, as a "monster"? If there is only a God who resembles that Father whom Jesus described, then any other kind of god is less good, and one who unnecessarily and eternally torments those who slight him would be rightly regarded as a monster (as would any man, who did or desired to do, any such thing).

Now, if the traditional view is true, then this monstrous behavior must be regarded as consistent with the holiness of God. Since we are told to be holy, as He is holy, it would seemingly dictate similar vindictiveness on our part toward those who slight us. If this is holy behavior, what could be said against it.

Now, anticipating your response that God is entitled to do things that no creature is entitled to do, I will allowing. However, this applies to God's unique prerogatives, not His unique character. God, as sovereign, has the right and ability to carry out functions of judgment that no human being is able to do. However, every aspect of His character is exemplary, by every standard, including that which we are assigned to imitate (Eph.5:1).

When negatively assessing the traditional view, I am not critiquing the prerogatives of God. Vengeance is His prerogative, not ours. However, the precise manner in which He chooses to punish offenders is also within His sovereign prerogatives, and thus is a reflection of His character and preferences. No one, given other options, would choose eternal torment for His enemies (that is, for His alienated children), other than one whose attitude toward personal affronts is one that Christians would condemn in anyone else. The traditional view presents a god which, if any human shared his character, we would call that man a monster. While acknowledging God's prerogatives to torment eternally, we are simply saying that God's sovereign prerogatives entitle Him, if He wishes, to be a monster.

If God were actually such a being, it would behove His creatures to worship Him nonetheless—however, it would make Jesus appear to be a wayward Son who is rebelling against His Father's preferences.

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Homer
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Homer » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:15 am

Hi steve,

I'm not following your reasoning after reading and rereading what you have written.

Put in syllogistic form:

1. The traditional view of hell makes God a monster.

2. The traditional view of God/hell is false.

3. God is not a monster.

Or:

1. The traditional view of hell makes God a monster.

2. The traditional view of God/hell is true.

3. God is a monster.

That is the way I see what you say; perhaps you can state your view clearly in syllogistic form if the above is false.

Also I am puzzled why you never seem to consider that hell is "outer darkness", or exclusion from the presence of God. Many theologians hold this view.

dizerner

Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by dizerner » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:47 am

Seems like the whole "monster" term is an emotional poisoning of the well that we have the ability to judge morality by whether a being is in pain, same as atheists use. Fearing God is the number one doctrinal emphasis of Scripture, but that doesn't logically mean God is evil, because evil is more than just a feeling of injustice in our intuition. Not to mention it leads to more logical problems (you will be forced to gauge how "bad" you think an action is and the exact amount of corresponding "pain" you think it justifies, an arrogant and presumptuous reckoning from ignorance).

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steve
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by steve » Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:37 am

Homer,

The following is not a syllogism, because a syllogism must start with a more specific affirmation than my position takes. However. the logical steps of my view would be:

1. The traditional view of hell is either right or wrong;

2. If wrong, it slanderously depicts God as worse than any but the worst of human beings could be—what normal people would call a monster;

3. If correct, then God really is much more like the worst of human beings than He is like the best of them—but this must be regarded as a part of what it means to be "holy" and "good."
Also I am puzzled why you never seem to consider that hell is "outer darkness", or exclusion from the presence of God. Many theologians hold this view.
I have never had any reason to object to this characterization of hell. This, too, would be a form of genuine torment. The question is not whether torment may be a just and appropriate consequence for lifelong rebellion against God—nor whether it takes the form of fire, darkness, or something else. I'm sure that whatever form of torment it involves is more than justified. However, this is not part of our controversy.

The question is whether the torment is eternal—and thus accomplishing nothing good (ever), or whether it is finite, and eventually results in an improvement of either men or circumstances. Since God is sovereign, and capable of choosing among the full range of alternatives, the choice of unproductive everlasting torment for His rebellious children, in the presence of better options, would bespeak a kind of character that would never be regarded as "sane" or "balanced"—much less "good"—if found in men. Men who behave this way, historically, have been regarded as monsters—and often suspected of being demon possessed. This is only an observation. Take it whatever direction you wish.

dizerner wrote:
evil is more than just a feeling of injustice in our intuition.


There is intuition and there is divine revelation. The former often is misleading, but not the latter. Jesus revealed the character of God, and scripture reveals what is just or unjust. We cannot go far wrong following these guides faithfully.
you will be forced to gauge how "bad" you think an action is and the exact amount of corresponding "pain" you think it justifies, an arrogant and presumptuous reckoning from ignorance.
I am not forced to do any such thing. Degrees of evil and of punishment are not mine to distinguish nor judge. This is God's to do. Our responsibility is to decide whether one theory or another about God's judgment agrees with what the Bible has said on the subject.

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Homer
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Homer » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:30 am

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the response. It seems this discussion could fit as well into the thread by Apos on the "Problem of Evil". In your conclusion you wrote:
3. If correct, then God really is much more like the worst of human beings than He is like the best of them—but this must be regarded as a part of what it means to be "holy" and "good."
Following your train of thought, wouldn't the following also be true?:

1. The view of God depicted in the book of Joshua is either right or wrong.

2. If wrong, it slanderously depicts a God as bad as the worst of human beings — what normal people would call a monster;

3. If correct, then God really is much more like the worst of human beings than He is like the best of them — but this must be regarded as a part of what it means to be "holy" and "good."

It seems to me someone else who posts here regularly would agree. But can we put God "in the dock"? Seems like that is what we are doing.

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steve
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by steve » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:28 am

We are not putting God in the dock, unless He has said that He is doing something that would be hard to reconcile with an all-loving God, and we were then accusing Him of evil for His doing so. If God says He is doing something, then I assume it is a good thing—even if it goes against my grain. Tormenting people forever would be such a thing, though, fortunately, God has never said He will do such a thing, so the problem of reconciling His actions to His character does not exist.

There is no obvious conflict between a loving judge and a sentence of death for those condemned of crimes worthy of death. Whether people died at the edge of Israelite swords, or in their sleep, their death does not need to be justified beyond the decree, "The wages of sin is death." The problem would arise if, after the decreed sentence had been executed, the guilty party was then resurrected to be tortured forever.

A kind judge might be obliged to pass the original sentence. Only a monster would gratuitously do the second action. I am not placing God in the dock. I am placing an evil doctrine slandering God in the dock. God is not a monster. He is a just judge, however.

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Alex719
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Alex719 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:41 pm

Paidion,
Thank you for the link, I was beginning to think that perhaps my question was not clear enough ;)

PaulS
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by PaulS » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:31 pm

Dear Alex719,

The best short work on the views of Hell by the Church Fathers (and to the present) that I've ever come across is the booklet produced by The Christian History Institute. You can download it for free at: https://www.christianhistoryinstitute.o ... ell-guide/

I hope it is helpful,

Paul

Jim
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Jim » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:21 pm

.....Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

. . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises).

This teaching is found in many spiritual writers and saints: Saint Maximus the Confessor, the novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky. At the end of the ages God’s glorious love is revealed for all to behold in the face of Christ. Man’s eternal destiny—heaven or hell, salvation or damnation—depends solely on his response to this love.

https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox- ... n-and-hell
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

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Homer
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Re: Church fathers view on hell

Post by Homer » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:58 pm

Jim,

Good post. If we consider that a "metaphorical" view of eternal punishment (held by many theologians) would entail God's permanent withdrawal (outer darkness) for those who reject Him, I do not see any fault on God's part.

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