Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell?

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steve
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by steve » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:00 am

as far as I am aware, he remains faithful to Christ - if only out of fear of ECT.
Of course, we cannot know if this is really the only reason for his professed faithfulness to Christ (for example, he might, without having really admitted it out loud, actually have arrived at some modicum of love for the God who sacrificed all for him—but, maybe not). If there is nothing but fear involved, then his "faithfulness" appears to have his own self-interest, rather than Christ, as its object.

Similarly, we don't really know if he has remained (or ever was) faithful to Christ at all. We do not know his heart. If a man can be said to have remained "faithful" to his wife "only out of fear that she would otherwise divorce him and take everything he has from him,"—and if we had some way of knowing that this really was the ONLY reason he did not cheat on her—I would not be inclined to refer to his resolve as "faithfulness" to his wife. It sounds as if he simply finds himself trapped in a relationship that he would sooner be freed from, but which he does not dare to abandon. This may be a "legal" marriage, but it lacks every component of love, of which "faithfulness" is a necessary feature.

The man who remains true to his religious commitments only because it terrifies him to think of the alternative does not appear to have any love for God—because, if he did, this would provide an additional incentive for faithfulness, and we are starting with the premise that he has no such alternative reason.

I wonder if such a man may prove to be like the Pharisees, who were "faithful" to their religion, but to whom Jesus said, "I know you, that you have no love for God in you." These men were not saved. The great commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, etc. I know there are people who love God in this manner, despite their belief in eternal conscious torment, but it is hard to believe anyone loves God simply because of such a doctrine.

There will be many, Jesus said, who will think they were Christians, and who will have done many impressive religious things, but to whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you." Jesus contrasted the ones who merely say, "Lord, Lord." with those who "do the will of [the] Father in heaven" (Matt.7:21ff). The will of God is certainly that we should do the first and greatest commandment! If anyone actually does this (i.e., loves God supremely) then it could never be said that he is faithful only out of fear of ECT.

If someone does not love God, then how does he differ from those who merely "say, 'Lord, Lord'" without doing the will of the Father? It does not appear, from what Jesus said, that they will be counted, by Him, as beig among the "faithful."

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Homer
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:09 pm

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
A gun to the head will induce most anyone to comply with the wishes of the one whose finger is on the trigger.
And this is what I have never been able to grasp: how torment in hell, the equivalent of a gun to the head, produces a free will conversion.
In fact, in ordinary life, most intelligent people even seem to be persuaded to rein in their worst impulses by the threat of merely corrective punishments—whether it be their father's belt or a prison sentence. Neither of these expressions of "wrath" result in death or eternal torment, but what a fool a man would be to be unmotivated by their threat!
Well, I have seen this very thing, the threat that is inadequate. It certainly must be admitted that eternal punishment is a greater threat than annihilation, which is in turn a greater threat than universalism presents. And I am not advocating eternal punishment as more likely than annihilation.

Years ago in my youth I was a bit of a friend, not a close friend, of a co-worker I will call "Joe". Joe was the son of a lawyer/small town judge and was familiar with the rather weak punishment meted out to criminals at the time. I hadn't seen Joe for awhile and when I did he informed me of criminal activity he was involved in. He was forging checks and had some young girls passing the checks at businesses. When I questioned him about the trouble he could find himself in he informed me of the length of jail time he would receive if he was caught and how much money he was making from the bad checks. He had these numbers calculated as to how much money he would make per hour of jail time; is was a significant wage. And he might not get caught. To my knowledge, he never was. Joe went on to commit murder, stabbing someone to death in a dispute over drugs, for which he spent seven merely years in prison.

So let's consider the man living a hedonistic life. (Hey, I did not use the Hugh Hefner icon here :o ) He hears about the gospel and has heard about universalism. He ponders whether he should explore the evidences and claims for Christianity. And he thinks to him self if it isn't true there is no cost for my pleasure and if true I still always have the opportunity to be saved.
The great commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, etc. I know there are people who love God in this manner, despite their belief in eternal conscious torment, but it is hard to believe anyone loves God simply because of such a doctrine.
Correct, but that doctrine might be what starts them in that direction. I have seen it happen.
There will be many, Jesus said, who will think they were Christians, and who will have done many impressive religious things, but to whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you." Jesus contrasted the ones who merely say, "Lord, Lord." with those who "do the will of [the] Father in heaven" (Matt.7:21ff).
But the person motivated by the desire to not go to hell may "do the will of the Father in heaven" by trusting in Jesus to save him from hell and obeying Jesus. And isn't obedience (faithfulness) the test of love? The bible tirelessly urges people to turn to God for their own good. As Jeremias remarked the OT repeatedly urged people "to obey God and Live".

The will of God is certainly that we should do the first and greatest commandment! If anyone actually does this (i.e., loves God supremely) then it could never be said that he is faithful only out of fear of ECT.
Agreed, But who can say that they consistently keep the greatest commandments? I heard R. C. Sproul confess publicly on his program that he could not honestly say that there was a day in his life in which he fully kept the greatest commandment. That is admirable humility.

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steve
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by steve » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:52 pm

The gun to the head, or the threat of criminal sentences, does not eliminate free will. There were students in Roseburg, Oregon, who recently made the choice to confess Christ with a gun to their head, knowing that, in the shooter's mind, they were choosing wrongly. It can be done. No one said that free choice operates entirely without pressure. Your criminal friend was not deterred by criminal penalties from pursuing a life of crime. Smart people will behave to avoid penalties, but not everyone is smart.

Imagine a man having heard only of universalism, who will not turn humbly and sincerely to Christ. He then hears that the penalty for sin is eternal punishment, and he says, "Oh! In that case, I guess I will be a Christian!" You apparently believe that man has found a true, saving relationship with Christ. I have my doubts. It is like the beautiful woman who refuses to marry a suitor, toward whom she feels no attraction, until he says he will kill her if she continues to refuse. Under those circumstances, she changes her mind and marries him. Is there anything about her choice to marry him that should make him feel flattered?

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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by thrombomodulin » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:04 pm

steve wrote: Of course, we cannot know if this is really the only reason for his professed faithfulness to Christ (for example, he might, without having really admitted it out loud, actually have arrived at some modicum of love for the God who sacrificed all for him¿but, maybe not). If there is nothing but fear involved, then his "faithfulness" appears to have his own self-interest, rather than Christ, as its object.
Thank you for the correction. When I wrote this I had in mind an assessment of his preferences at the margin. That is to say, I could not rule out the possibility that he loves Christ a certain amount, and thus along with all other things considered, he prefers to refrain from engaging in a life of sin. His professed position was that if his view of hell were changed, then his overall assessment of a more satisfactory state of affairs changes. Under those circumstances he said his preference would be to cease his efforts to obey God, at least during this life, and instead proceed to indulge in the desires of the flesh.
steve wrote: Similarly, we don't really know if he has remained (or ever was) faithful to Christ at all. We do not know his heart.
Agreed. All of the above was based on what he said - it is beyond me to be able to validate the truthfulness of his words. I quit attending this bible study group about 2 years ago, and I have not seen him since. I may, however, return to it again in late 2016, or 2017. What can be done for such a man in such circumstances? What steps would you suggest that he, or anyone else, should take to develop the love for Christ that he is deficient in?
steve wrote: ... if we had some way of knowing that this really was the ONLY reason he did not cheat on her ... does not appear to have any love for God.
I agree with the analysis you gave given the premises assumed: (1) the ONLY reason, and (2) zero love for God. I have great difficulty making the assessment when the assumptions are relaxed to allow that multiple motivations exist which influence action, and there is a more than zero amount of love for God.
steve wrote: There will be many, Jesus said, who will think they were Christians, and who will have done many impressive religious things, but to whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you." Jesus contrasted the ones who merely say, "Lord, Lord." with those who "do the will of [the] Father in heaven" (Matt.7:21ff). The will of God is certainly that we should do the first and greatest commandment! If anyone actually does this (i.e., loves God supremely) then it could never be said that he is faithful only out of fear of ECT.
How can anyone know if they love God enough to pass this test?

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steve
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by steve » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:12 pm

What steps would you suggest that he, or anyone else, should take to develop the love for Christ that he is deficient in?
It seems to me that loving someone involves, essentially, a choice to do so, expressed in appropriate actions. Love is a choice to value another person (whether human or God) above myself, and to put the interests of that person ahead of my own.

As with all choices, this requires some incentive. To increase our love for God, we should cultivate those attitudes that provide the necessary incentives to make choices toward that end.

This is why some people think we should preach the most terrifying vision of hell possible—i.e., in order to provide sufficient incentive for people to choose to love God. However, as has been pointed out earlier, though fear of punishment does indeed provide incentive to obey, it does not provide incentive to love. Punishment appeals only to the self interest, and provides incentive for one to protect himself from consequences. If one comes to love the person that he/she fears, it will not be because of the fear ("there is no fear in love"), but because of additional considerations that allow him/her to love the punisher despite the fear of punishment.

Three biblical incentives for love, which do not involve fear, are:

1) Pity for the weak or the vulnerable. This seems to be God's motive implied in John 3:16, and is stated outright in Romans 5:6-8. This is why parents love their children—because of their being vulnerable and in need of our assistance. "Like a father pities his children, so the Lord pities them who fear Him" (Ps.103:13). This is also what motivated the "Good Samaritan" to help a helpless stranger, and motivates us to love the needy (1 John 3:17). When it comes to loving God, this factor may not seem to apply, but God is also emotionally vulnerable (if the scriptural representations of Him are correct), and, as we should feel loath to bring emotional distress to human being, we should be equally unwilling to grieve our Maker, who has given us only good things, or such things as He intends to work for our good.

2) Gratitude. It is a normal human reaction to appreciate the mercy and generosity of others shown to us. Ingratitude, though only too common among us, is a sub-human trait. We love God because He first loved us. Jesus said, "He who is forgiven much, loves much." David wrote, "Bless the Lord, O my soul, and do not forget all HIs benefits" (Psalm 103:2). Those who do not contemplate the undeserved blessings that God has given them are not likely to feel much in the way of love for God. People who think they deserve the good circumstances that they enjoy, or who focus more on the things that they wish they had, but do not have, are spoiled ingrates. This has become an epidemic in our pampered culture, reducing our capacity to love anyone but ourselves.

3) Admiration. We love people whom we admire. Think of our favorite celebrities, athletes, statesmen, etc. Sometimes these people are truly our superiors, and sometimes their mere fame intimidates us. I was once in a cafe in Hollywood and Vince Vaughn was at the next table. I am not even a fan of his, but knowing that he was a famous person made me feel like this was something special. If we regard someone as more amazing than ourselves, we naturally feel privileged to be close to, or included in the circle of, that person. Some children love and admire their parents, not so much out of gratitude for what they provide, but for their perceived superiority in size, strength and knowledge of every subject. Similarly, our contemplating the glory and magnitude of God should produce admiring awe, which inspires deference, and encourages love.

How can anyone know if they love God enough to pass this test?
Biblically, the test of genuine love is the willingness to die for someone. If we are faithful in the face of martyrdom, it is a pretty good indicator that we love God—just as the hero who boldly dies for his country or for his companions is exhibiting love for his country or his companions.

Of course, some may say that they do not know whether they would be faithful in situations that, at present, are entirely hypothetical.How do I know what I would do when threatened with the lions' den?

The beginning of the Christian life is the denial of self, and the accepting of a cross (Matthew 16:24). Those who have never taken that step into Christianity, but have taken lesser steps which they regard to have been the embracing of something they think is Christianity, may very well wonder what they would do in a life-threatening situation. Those who are calculating the risk/benefit ratio of being faithful to God, on a case-by-case basis, might well question whether their analysis would turn up the right numbers in a deadly encounter with a shooter who asks, "Are you a Christian?" Now is definitely the time to consider this, rather than waiting until the crisis arises.

It is a shame that so many people have been encouraged to think of themselves as Christians, who have neglected the very entry-level steps of commitment, so that their choices day-by-day are still being calculated on the question of advantage to themselves. They have not yet "denied themselves"—that is, denied their self-rule and commitment to self-interest. "Christianity," as they have embraced it, is simply another extension of their self-interest. They cannot say, "For me to live is Christ; and to die is gain."

I can think of two factors in deciding, realistically, if we love Christ enough to die for Him:

1) Do we begrudge the smaller sacrifices that our Christian commitment currently requires of us, day-by-day, or do we take joy in them? People in love take pleasure in blessing their loved ones at their own personal expense;

2) Do I trust that God, who gives me grace for my present trials, will give adequate grace for the ultimate test when (not if) the time comes? Trust in God inevitably brings grace (Rom.5:2; Eph.2:8). Do I love God enough to trust Him with my future—both temporal and eternal?

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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:45 pm

I am in full agreement with Steve on this one.

Salvation is not about being saved from hell. It is about being saved from sins.

The angel didn't say to Joseph, "You shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from hell.”
Rather he said, "You shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (Matt 1:21)

It is unnecessary to speak of hell at all when bringing the gospel to someone. Many people become aware that there is something wrong in their lives. They are seeking for an answer. They have tried wealth, pleasure, ownership of many "toys", etc. but nothing seems to give lasting satisfaction. Offering a solution to being saved from wrongdoing and finding joy in life are the motivating factors for many or most who have become true disciples of Christ. I have seen many whose only or main motivation was to escape hell, to be shallow and self-serving. They go to church, and some of them put on a good show. But I have doubted whether they are actually Christians at all. I don't know their hearts and could be mistaken; my assessment relates only to their outward behaviour. Yet, Jesus said one could recognize false prophets by their fruits (Matt 7:15,16) and so it seems we might be able to recognize false Christians also by this means.
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by dizerner » Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:00 pm

Fearing anger may not be the optimal motivation, but it does seem God will accept it—Psalm 2:12.

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Homer
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by Homer » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:38 am

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
This is why some people think we should preach the most terrifying vision of hell possible—i.e., in order to provide sufficient incentive for people to choose to love God. However, as has been pointed out earlier, though fear of punishment does indeed provide incentive to obey, it does not provide incentive to love. Punishment appeals only to the self interest, and provides incentive for one to protect himself from consequences. If one comes to love the person that they fear, it will not be because of the fear ("there is no fear in love"), but because of additional considerations that allow him/ her to love the punisher despite the fear of punishment.
From another viewpoint the unbeliever is a rebel, although likely a rebel unknowingly, as many are, whose default destiny is hell. When he becomes aware of his peril, and hears of the gift of salvation and forgiveness freely bestowed by Christ through his sacrifice, I would think that would be as much of a motivation to love God as anything. It is difficult to save someone who does not realize his predicament.

Regarding love of God I think you "hit the nail on the head" here:
It seems to me that loving someone involves, essentially, a choice to do so, expressed in appropriate actions. Love is a choice to value another person (whether human or God) above myself, and to put the interests of that person ahead of my own.
Regarding this choice, I am not aware of anything negative Jesus had to say about loving God with fear as motivation. He certainly urged His followers to fear God. It seems to me that our idea of love is not the same as that of the ancient near east. In the Handbook of Biblical Social Values, Bruce Malina writes that love in the ANE "May or may not be coupled with feelings of affection" and gives the primary meaning as being attached to someone or thing. Malina cites many scriptures in support of his thesis. Loving God and keeping His commandments is the expression of that love:

John 14:21
21. He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”


Earlier Thrombomodulin wrote:
I know an example which is not exactly the same, but should suffice to make Homer's point. You might recall a thread I started a few years ago called "If eternal conscious torment is false, then its 'party time'". At the time I was attending a bible study where we went through Francis Chan's book "erasing hell". Another man who was attending affirmed this position using almost exactly the words I used to create the title of that thread. He never became convinced of either alternative view of hell and, as far as I am aware, he remains faithful to Christ - if only out of fear of ECT.
I do not believe it is possible to argue biblically that this man is not a saved Christian.

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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by steve » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:17 am

From another viewpoint the unbeliever is a rebel, although likely a rebel unknowingly, as many are, whose default destiny is hell. When he becomes aware of his peril, and hears of the gift of salvation and forgiveness freely bestowed by Christ through his sacrifice, I would think that would be as much of a motivation to love God as anything. It is difficult to save someone who does not realize his predicament.
One is more likely to love a person for his lovable qualities than for his threats of torture. In fact, I am not sure if anyone was ever brought to love another primarily through the latter—maybe in spite of the latter, in some cases. What the rebel needs is genuine repentance, and the scripture says it is the goodness of God that leads one to repent (Rom.2:4). At best, a rebel is led to forced compliance by threats. This is not love.

One may feel gratitude if he understands that the mercy of God has saved him from something terrible, or simply because he realizes that the mercy of God has forgiven him and granted him a destiny far better than any he could have deserved. I don't deny that a fear of eternal torment has been present in the case of many conversions. What I am denying is that any view, or consideration, of hell is a necessary part of genuine conversion. It is not a factor in the biblical gospel presentations.

Thus, gratitude toward God can be present, regardless which view of hell one has—or if one has no view on the subject at all. There is no reason to believe that a belief in eternal torment would inspire such gratitude any more than belief in conditional immortality or restorationism. Sometimes you argue as if a belief in restorationism has no teeth to provide motivation for avoidance of hell. I have no idea how such an argument can be sustained. As I pointed out earlier, the majority of selfish citizens are probably restrained from committing serious crimes by the knowledge that prison terms (neither deadly nor eternal) will be the likely consequence. Since restorationism does not make any projections of duration of punishment—leaving open the possibility that it may sometimes exceed the length of a natural lifetime, there is no reason to assume that hell would be less severe than a life sentence, or longer, in a very tormenting prison or mental institution. What an idiot one would be to say, "Well, if that's all it is, I guess I'll live rebelliously and accept this 'light' penalty"?

I do not believe it is possible to argue biblically that this man is not a saved Christian.
I have no way of knowing if the man is saved or not. That is not my call to make. But, as I said, there is no reason to believe that he has the motivation that makes a man a Christian. Jesus turned away more than one would-be disciple who had the "me first" attitude (Luke 9:59-62).

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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:01 pm

It seem to me that if promoting fear of hell were an important element as a motivating factor to accepting the gospel, then surely the great evangelist and apostle Paul would have used it. But Paul does not even mention hell in all 12 letters he wrote that are recorded in the New Testament.

Now you might say that Paul wrote those letters to believers and so it wasn't necessary to write about hell. However, the book of Acts deals quite a bit about conversions, including Peter's great gospel message to the Jews who mocked concerning those who were speaking in tongues, stating that they were drunk. Peter's initial message is recorded in Acts 2:14-36. Yet Peter does not say a word about hell to scare them into repenting. Instead, he helps them to see that they have crucified the very Messiah that God had sent. That realization is what cut them to the heart and led them to ask, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" It was then that Peter gave the gospel message, " “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Yes, they would receive the very Holy Spirit whose actions they had been mocking. They weren't scared into receiving the gospel message. It was conviction, being "cut to the heart" that prepared them to receive the message and to act on it. About 3000 people were added to the Assembly of Christ that day!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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