Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell?

thrombomodulin
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:16 pm

Steve,

Thank you for the your reply. In describing love, you said:
Steve wrote: Love is a choice to value another person (whether human or God) above myself, and to put the interests of that person ahead of my own.
Steve wrote: Do we begrudge the smaller sacrifices that our Christian commitment currently requires of us, day-by-day, or do we take joy in them? People in love take pleasure in blessing their loved ones at their own personal expense;
If I am understanding this correctly, the above two statements are very different descriptions of what love is. The former describes an act of the will, which is within the capability of a person to control. I agree with Homer that this "hits the nail on the head". The latter describes feelings of affection. It is my understanding that feelings can be influenced in an indirect manner through means such as the three incentives described in your reply. The nature of feelings, however, in my experience and understanding is not something which can be fully or directly controlled by the individual. In so far as the latter, and not the former, is definitive of the Christian life this can destroy the possibility of having an assurance that one is not among those described in Matthew 7:23.

Have I understood your comments correctly? If so, does the conclusion I am drawing from it necessarily follow?

Thanks
Pete

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steve
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by steve » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:33 pm

To "take joy" certainly sounds like an emotion. I was thinking of the term in the sense that we are commanded to "rejoice" in something (usually, in the Lord). This is often commanded, as if it is something more to be rationally chosen than felt. It would be like someone saying, "I am grieving the loss of my husband, but I am just glad he is in heaven right now." This would be saying, "I am rejoicing that he was saved and is in heaven—even though all my emotions are sad." Spiritual rejoicing and sad emotions are thus compatible. Jesus must have had this in mind when He said, "Happy are those who mourn" (Matt.54), and "Happy are you who weep" (Luke 6:21).

I have always found it difficult to explain a phenomenon which, I believe, all Spirit-filled Christians know by experience—namely, the spiritual fruits of peace and joy that transcend the surface emotions of immediate circumstances.

Both peace and joy are known to all people as emotions. However, the fruit of the Spirit speaks of something deeper than feelings. Jesus said that the peace He gives is "not as the world gives" (John 14:27) and Paul spoke of it as the "peace that surpasses all understanding" (Phil.4:7). Jesus said that we have this peace "in Him" even while we are experiencing tribulation "in the world" (John 16:33). This peace must exist even when our emotions are distraught.

Similarly, Peter speaks of the "joy inexpressible and full of glory" (1 Peter 1:8)—which is described, a few verses earlier, in these terms: "in [salvation] you greatly rejoice, though...you have been grieved by various trials"(v.6). Peter and John, having been flogged, went away "rejoicing" that they had been counted worthy to suffer shame for Christ (Acts 5:41). This rejoicing must certainly have accompanied feelings of great pain. James also exhorts us to "count it all joy when you fall into various trials" (James 1:2).

That which is spiritual is at a different level from that which is merely emotional.

When I describe love as something that causes us to take joy (be glad) in the act of self-sacrifice, I am not specifically referring to what we would normally think of as the well-known emotion of light-hearted happiness. Jesus did not seem lighthearted while on the cross, but we are told that He endured it "for the joy that was set before Him" (Heb.12:2). I take this to mean that He was glad to do it, out of love for His Father (who required it) and for us (who needed it).

I suppose this kind of "joy" might be described as the absence of reluctance, grudging or regret. If I regret having made a sacrifice, or if I am reluctant in making it, then I am not "glad" or "rejoicing" to do it. That is what I mean in describing acts of love as I have. If I am bummed about having to wake up in the night to change my child's sheets because of a bedwetting incident, I am not doing it out of love for my child. If my wife asks me to interrupt something I am enjoying doing, in order to assist her in something she is doing, and if I resent having to do so, this means I am not acting in love, but only in duty. Similarly, if I have to give up some enjoyment, some possession, or my life, in the faithful obedience to God, if I am displeased that I have to do so, then I need to cultivate love for God in my heart. The three incentives I mentioned above are helpful in this.

When every sacrifice or even pain is offered up out of love to Jesus, it leads to a life of continuous joy and peace—despite emotional fluctuations. Most of our acts of love toward God are also acts of service to others. "Inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these, my brethren, you have done it to me." When we contemplate our indebtedness, and the majesty of the One for whom even a costly sacrifice is required, there is no rational inward response than to say, "It's the least I could do!"

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Homer
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by Homer » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:04 am

Hi Steve,

I agree with much of what you just wrote. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was on "death row" for his involvement in a plot to kill Hitler. He was said to have "joy" while in this situation because he could see that the end of Hitler was near, yet he was not happy in his predicament. Joy and happiness are not the same thing.

You wrote:
Similarly, if I have to give up some enjoyment, some possession, or my life, in the faithful obedience to God, if I am displeased that I have to do so, then I need to cultivate love for God in my heart.
Could you elaborate on what you mean here? For example, when the Apostle Paul wrote how he "beat my body and bring it into submission" I would think he was referring with the struggle with his flesh. At some level there was a reluctance on his part to do what he should and he overcame it with an act of the will. And as I understand the meaning of agape, it is, as you said, a choice, an act of the will to do that which is right in spite of the flesh which may desire something else. I think we love God primarily in obedience which many times requires overcoming our desires.

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steve
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by steve » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:29 am

Paul disciplined himself, but it was not because he took no joy in obedience. He testified to the struggle between "desires" of the flesh and "desires" of the spirit (Gal.5:17). However, at the same time, he said, "I delight in the law of God according to the inward man." Paul spoke of the flesh and its desires as the "outer man." It was the life of the "inner man" that mattered (2 Cor.4:16). Outwardly, there were fleshly temptations and desires to do what was wrong. Inwardly, though, his delight was in the law of the Lord (as in Psalm 1:2).

Every Christian has two sets of desires. There is "a part of me" (my flesh) that desires self-gratification. Another "part of me" (my spirit) desires to please God. The latter is the dominant desire in the Christian, though he sometimes succumbs to the former. Because of the greater desire, the believer is motivated to defeat and subjugate the lesser. This is the self-discipline of which Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 9.

Paul likens this discipline to that of an athlete in training. The motivated athlete willingly subjects himself to self-denial of many of his desires. He does not begrudge the sacrifices, though. He does it with exhilaration at the prospect of winning the race.

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Homer
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by Homer » Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:55 pm

Back to the question in the OP. It has been asserted that universalism pictures God in a more favorable light and makes God more attractive insofar as gaining or retaining converts, and is thus a more effective message. However the theologian most often cited in support of universalism believed the idea should not be disseminated. Mark S. M. Scott, in his book "Journey Back to God: Origen on the Problem of Evil", Oxford U. Press, comments "Origen reserves these higher truths of the faith only for the most spiritually advanced".

I had read of Origen's position on this some time ago. Why would Origen believe in holding universalism as an esoteric doctrine if it was in fact likely to be helpful in winning and retaining converts? Was he wrong and if so why?

And it might be asked if the mention of hell is more likely to turn people away from God than draw them, how do we explain the success of the second "Great Awakening", which, unlike the first, focused on the unsaved in this country?

Singalphile
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Re: Gospel message should include or exclude 3 views of hell

Post by Singalphile » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:59 pm

Steve wrote:If one would object that these threats do not induce most people to become Christians, the obvious reply would be that the threat of eternal torment ... has similarly failed to persuade most men to be saved. The problem is that most sinners do not believe, or take seriously, the threat. Those who don't believe in hell will not be motivated by threats of hell—no matter how it is described to them. One reason that most people don't believe in hell is that they have only heard a version of it that is manifestly so out of sync with the character of God that we have preached as to make it seem surreal. A more biblical presentation of the subject is also, by nature, a more believable one.
Agreed. Made me think of the AC/DC song, Highway to Hell, which has had millions of people singing along: "Ain't nothin' that I'd rather do. Goin' down. Party time. My friends are gonna be there too. I'm on the highway to hell!"

Googled "songs about hell". There are several articles or videos about hell songs. Interesting that most are heavy rock/metal. They lyrics are generally awful, but it gives some idea of what's going on out there (though the songs are mostly pretty old).
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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