All punishment is remedial?

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njd83
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All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:05 pm

Paidion,

I heard or at least picked up on maybe your thoughts that "all" punishment is remedial. I know you quoted Origen to defend that.

I am thinking over this and wanted to ask if you wouldn't mind a discussion about this.

I know you're pretty aware of lots of verses, and church fathers and some greek and hebrew.

So, my dilemma here is not if "some" punishment is remedial. Its whether "all" punishment is remedial. you know?

To believe that, my main biblical stumbling-text would be:
“Messengers[angels] also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of [the] great day, in bonds everlasting(aidios, ἀΐδιος), under darkness He hath kept,” (Jude 6, YLT)
(also this may open up a discussion of "Tartarus" or "Abbadon" as differentiated from Hades)

The problem, you see, is in that word I outlined in greek. Its doesn't mean age-during, but "ever-during" or everlasting.

Everywhere else where the English says "eternal" its actually the word "aionios" or "age-during", not "ever-during" or everlasting.

So you could make an argument that there's "remedial hope" for those under "aionios age-during" punishment, but, it doesn't seem like there's any remedial hope under "ever-during" "ἀΐδιος" "bonds". Even those under "aionios" punishment may end up being completely destroyed. I don't know.

But the real hang up for an argument that ALL punishment is remedial is Jude 6 ἀΐδιος bonds.

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Homer
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by Homer » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:09 pm

njd83 wrote:
Everywhere else where the English says "eternal" its actually the word "aionios" or "age-during", not "ever-during" or everlasting.
But this is only true if there is no last age, an unending age. In jack Cottrell's commentary on Romans, volume 2, he provided his (and Stott's) understanding of the ages in chart form:

Image

In Cottrell's view the "old age" extends from the fall until Christ's return. The "new age" and "last days" began at Christ's first coming, and the "last days" also end at Christ's second coming. The "new age" or eschaton exists in embryonic form, along with the "old age" during the last days. Those born again with the Holy Spirit are living in the "new age" while the lost are presently living in the old age. Under this system of understanding aionios in reference to judgement necessarily is eternal.

Regarding Romans 13:11-14 Cottrell comments:
This brief paragraph abounds in temporal references to these contrasting ages and our relationship to them....
Night and darkness are synonymous with the old age as is "this world", Romans 12:2, and "this present evil age", Galatians 1:4, all to be burned up and replaced by the "new heavens and earth" at Christ's second coming.

Day and light are synonymous with the new age, the sphere of the new creation, an eschatological reality that has already begun which during the last days consists mainly of the presence of the Holy Spirit, who is a foretaste and pledge of the future fullness of the new age. There is no age following.

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:49 am

In Cottrell's view the "old age" extends from the fall until Christ's return. The "new age" and "last days" began at Christ's first coming, and the "last days" also end at Christ's second coming. The "new age" or eschaton exists in embryonic form, along with the "old age" during the last days. Those born again with the Holy Spirit are living in the "new age" while the lost are presently living in the old age.
That seems reasonable to me. A nice way to describe how those who have the Spirit are of the Kingdom which endures.... The first fruits of the kingdom.
““I make a decree that in all the dominion of my kingdom men are to fear and tremble before the God of Daniel; For He is the living God and [abiding to the ages(olamin, plural)], And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed, And His dominion will be [unto the end].” (Daniel 6:26, NASB95)
“For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, [everlasting[ad עַד] father], Prince of Peace. To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age [ad olam, עַד עוֹלָם], The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.” (Isaiah 9:6–7, YLT)
“Because a child was born to us; a son was given to us whose leadership came upon his shoulder; and his name is called “Messenger of the Great Council,” for I will bring peace upon the rulers and health to him. His leadership is great, and there is no limit to his peace on the throne of David and his kingdom, to establish and take hold of it by justice and by righteousness, now and [into the age[aion]]. The eagerness of the Lord Sabaoth will do these things.” (Isaiah 9:6–7, LES Septuagint)

Notice how there are different terminology in the Greek and Hebrew OT and NT which specifically refer to different things. I wouldn't want to think the apostles and prophets who wrote the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit were just being lazy about using ambiguous terminology all referring the the same thing. I strongly believe the original text is very specific on what it refers to.

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:01 am

To further the OP

If we can know that NOT "All" punishment is remedial, then how do we know if our own punishment is remedial, or another person's judgment is remedial? etc.

How would we know whether an individuals punishment is remedial or just "under judgement" for "the great day" like the "angles who left their own principality". What's the determining factors?

Can a person "under judgment for the great day" change that fate? and come under grace and life and repentance and healing etc?

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:02 am

Back to your post Homer:

If you believe Stott and Cortrell's view,

What do you think of this verse
“And the sea[abyss] gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.” (Revelation 20:13, NASB95)
This is the second resurrection. The first resurrection is for the Spiritual, like you mentioned above, about the embryonic kingdom forming before Jesus return.

Everyone else is raised at the second resurrection. According to Stott/Cotrell's views, all are resurrected only to be dammed again to the lake of fire second death. The sinful unbelieving dead have been in torment in Hades(Luke 16:23) for 1000 years while Jesus reigned on the earth, and now they are resurrected only to be thrown again into the lake of fire. If their judgment is already set, seemingly according to Stott/Cotrell's view, why bring out the books of their deeds for judgment ? After they've been punished in Hades and have no hope?
“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.” (Revelation 20:12, NASB95)

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:12 am

Remember it says, "And IF..."
“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15, NASB95)
It doesn't say,... "and EVERYONE who was part of the second resurrection has their part in the lake of fire second death"...

If a view like Cotrell's/Stott's were correct, the Bible should have been more clear in so many places, but it leaves it vague.

And that would obviously be for a reason, since God's misphat/judgment is individual to each person and not blanketed black and white. every person is different. rewards are different. punishments are different.

How can God judge one person, say non-believer who worked a job took care of his family, basically did the right thing, never murdered, never adultery, never steal, etc, but was in some heathen religion,..... the same as say a dictator like hilter etc? That God is totally unpalatable, and I don't believe that God is supported by original text
Last edited by njd83 on Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Homer
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by Homer » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:41 am

If we can know that NOT "All" punishment is remedial, then how do we know if our own punishment is remedial, or another person's judgment is remedial? etc.
We all live under the curse, the result of the fall, and will all suffer from various "natural" things. Additionally God disciplines His children. Although we may not know whether the suffering we endure is for remedial purposes, we may nevertheless benefit from it.
How would we know whether an individuals punishment is remedial or just "under judgement" for "the great day" like the "angles who left their own principality". What's the determining factors?
I do not believe we can know, but at least, I believe, we can be sure God has at least allowed whatever happens. He has a veto over all that happens.
Can a person "under judgment for the great day" change that fate? and come under grace and life and repentance and healing etc?
I believe that in this life we can always repent and be forgiven. In some cases this may be practically impossible due to a hardened heart.

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Homer
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by Homer » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:56 am

This is the second resurrection. The first resurrection is for the Spiritual, like you mentioned above, about the embryonic kingdom forming before Jesus return.
We are born again into a new life but the metaphor should not be understood to mean we will not all (all mankind) be resurrected to face the final judgement.
Everyone else is raised at the second resurrection. According to Stott/Cotrell's views, all are resurrected only to be dammed again to the lake of fire second death.
I think this is a misunderstanding. I do not believe "everyone else" is resurrected but all are resurrected. one general resurrection. Judgement occurs and some are faced with the second death.
The sinful unbelieving dead have been in torment in Hades(Luke 16:23) for 1000 years while Jesus reigned on the earth, and now they are resurrected only to be thrown again into the lake of fire. If their judgment is already set, seemingly according to Stott/Cotrell's view, why bring out the books of their deeds for judgment ? After they've been punished in Hades and have no hope?
I do not believe Cottrell's chart has a place for a literal 1000 year reign as part of eternity. Judgement occurs when Christ returns and the resurrection of all the dead takes place. Then begins the final, unending phase of the new age.

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:03 pm

I pretty much agree. God can soften a heart, but yeah seems like practically impossible sometimes.

makes me think of
“‘If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me— I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies—or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity, then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land. ‘For the land will be abandoned by them, and will make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, will be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes.” (Leviticus 26:40–43, NASB95)

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:12 pm

I think this is a misunderstanding. I do not believe "everyone else" is resurrected but all are resurrected. one general resurrection. Judgement occurs and some are faced with the second death.
how do you make sense of
“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss[sea-type], and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.[first judgment, first ressurection. saints reigning with Jesus.] And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night [into the ages of the ages]. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it,[second final judgment] from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20, NASB95)

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