All punishment is remedial?

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:33 pm

an aside for anyone happening on this thread to get a bigger picture:

------------
some related versus in Daniel:
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““I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
“And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed
.” (Daniel 7:13–14, NASB95)
““I kept looking Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
“A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat, And the books were opened.
“Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. “As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.” (Daniel 7:9–12, NASB95)
““Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life[first ressurection], but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt[part of the second resurrection/judgment]. “Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.” (Daniel 12:1–3, NASB95)
“‘But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’” (Daniel 7:18, NASB95)
““I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.” (Daniel 7:21–22, NASB95)
“‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. ‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. ‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. ‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’” (Daniel 7:24–27, NASB95)
““In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.” (Daniel 2:44, NASB95)
““Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.” (Daniel 9:24, NASB95)

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Paidion
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:32 pm

Hi njd, you wrote:Paidion,

I heard or at least picked up on maybe your thoughts that "all" punishment is remedial. I know you quoted Origen to defend that.

I am thinking over this and wanted to ask if you wouldn't mind a discussion about this.

I know you're pretty aware of lots of verses, and church fathers and some greek and hebrew.

So, my dilemma here is not if "some" punishment is remedial. Its whether "all" punishment is remedial. you know?

To believe that, my main biblical stumbling-text would be:

“Messengers[angels] also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of [the] great day, in bonds everlasting(aidios, ἀΐδιος), under darkness He hath kept,” (Jude 6, YLT)
Well, I have no knowledge of Hebrew at all. If I made reference to Hebrew it is only what I picked up from my Online Bible Program. Hebrew characters are goobeldy-gook to me. For OT writings, I tend to refer to the Greek Septuagint as did the NT writers.

You are right that "αιδιος" is the true word for "everlasting" whereas "αιωνιος" simply means "lasting." However, some (and I think this includes Homer) believe that "αιωνιος" also means "everlasting" and when it is used to apply to that which is not everlasting, it is used in a figurative sense.

"αιδιος" is found in only two verses in the New Testament. Jude 6 is one of them. The other is:

Romans 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his everlasting power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.

Here is the ESV translation of Jude 6:

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day... (Jude 1:6 ESV)

Notice that these fallen angels are kept in everlasting chains, but seemingly only UNTIL the judgment of the great day. Jude doesn't say what will happen to them after that.

Our Lord Jesus, unlike the Pharisees, was not interested in condemning anyone but rather seeing them repent and change their ways. For example, He shamed the Pharisees who brought to Him the woman caught in adultery. They pointed out that the Mosaic law required that she be stoned to death, but Jesus shamed them into leaving one-by-one, and when they had all departed, He simply said that He did not condemn her, and then told her to sin no more.

There's no doubt that there are many passages in the OT that speak of vengeance on the wicked, and even joy in seeing them punished. But Jesus revealed the Father as He really is, and Jesus is exactly the same.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:24 pm

I understand that and that is a good point. (and I'm barely learning hebrew myself, just a few words here and there)

But my OP was about understanding God's misphat. Or just understanding God.

Basically, how can you trust a being you don't know?
and how can you know personally a being you don't understand?
and how can you obey [from the heart] a being you don't trust and understand?

To understand God's misphat, is to understand God. What does he think of people, and what does he do, when people sin, or do good, or give up hope or lose their life, dreams, goals, wife, family, farm etc etc?

What brings about God's abundant love upon a life. What brings about God's judgment.

Because just "accept Christ and you wont suffer eternal fire" doesn't really cut it. Unless you actually inside accept him spiritually and you change your lordship to him,... some of these ideas out there don't make sense of Him.

Solomon and the two harlots is in my opinion a good example of God's misphat. right? the end result was (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Jerimiah 9:24) mercy/lovingkindness/hesed, misphat(individual judgment decision) and righteousness/sedeq (causing the rest of the people to fear the king).
"For when the earth experiences Your judgments [misphat],
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness[sedeq].” (Isaiah 26:9b, NASB95)
“but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness[hesed], justice[misphat] and righteousness[sedeq] on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.” (Jeremiah 9:24, NASB95)
So yes I know you are trying to point out that Jesus reveals who God really is. Really Good. Really beautiful, loving, totally pure essence of radiant effulgence.
But that doesn't exclude God from destroying the wicked.
““Do not fear those who kill the body[soma] but are unable to kill the soul[psyche];
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy[apollumi] both soul[psyche] and body[soma] in Gehenna.” (Matthew 10:28, NASB95 edited)
“but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME[eat] THE ADVERSARIES.” (Hebrews 10:27, NASB95)
on the right hand we have conservatism, and on the left, liberalism. Truth and Mercy. Love and Law. Grace and Truth. Jesus said "It is ALSO written..."

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:51 pm


Irenaeus - Book V - Chaper 35

CHAP. XXXV.—HE CONTENDS THAT THESE TESTIMONIES ALREADY ALLEGED CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD ALLEGORICALLY OF CELESTIAL BLESSINGS, BUT THAT THEY SHALL HAVE THEIR FULFILMENT AFTER THE COMING OF ANTICHRIST, AND THE RESURRECTION, IN THE TERRESTRIAL JERUSALEM. TO THE FORMER PROPHECIES HE SUBJOINS OTHERS DRAWN FROM ISAIAH, JEREMIAH, AND THE APOCALYPSE OF JOHN.

1. If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: “When the cities” of the Gentiles “shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them, and the land shall be left desolate.”(Isaiah 6:11) “For, behold,” says Isaiah, “the day of the LORD cometh past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it.”(Isaiah 13:9) And again he says, “Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God.”(Isaiah 26:10) 4 And when these things are done, he says, “God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth.”(Isaiah 6:12) “And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves.”(Isaiah 65:21) 6 For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: “And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth.” And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, “Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God. O Jerusalem, put off thy robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from thy God. Gird thyself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from thy God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon thine head. For God will show thy glory to the whole earth under heaven. For thy name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God. Arise, Jerusalem, stand on high, and look towards the east, and behold thy sons from the rising of the sun, even to the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in the very remembrance of God. For the footmen have gone forth from thee, while they were drawn away by the enemy. God shall bring them in to thee, being borne with glory as the throne of a kingdom. For God has decreed that every high mountain shall be brought low, and the eternal hills, and that the valleys be filled, so that the surface of the earth be rendered smooth, that Israel, the glory of God, may walk in safety. The woods, too, shall make shady places, and every sweet-smelling tree shall be for Israel itself by the command of God. For God shall go before with joy in the light of His splendour, with the pity and righteousness which proceeds from Him.” (Baruch 4:36; 5)
2. Now all these things being such as they are, cannot be understood in reference to super-celestial matters; “for God,” it is said, “will show to the whole earth that is under heaven thy glory.” But in the times of the kingdom, the earth has been called again by Christ [to its pristine condition], and Jerusalem rebuilt after the pattern of the Jerusalem above, of which the prophet Isaiah says, “Behold, I have depicted thy walls upon my hands, and thou art always in my sight,” And the apostle, too, writing to the Galatians, says in like manner, “But the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”2 He does not say this with any thought of an erratic Æon, or of any other power which departed from the Pleroma, or of Prunicus, but of the Jerusalem which has been delineated on [God’s] hands. And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For after the times of the kingdom, he says, “I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them.” And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning “the dead, great and small.” “The sea,” he says, “gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover,” he says, “the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death.” Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire.6 “And if any one,” it is said, “was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.” And after this, he says, “I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband.” “And I heard,” it is said, “a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away.”8 Isaiah also declares the very same: “For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and there shall be no remembrance of the former, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation.”(Isaiah 65:17-18) Now this is what has been said by the apostle: “For the fashion of this world passeth away.”10 To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord’s disciple, says that the new Jerusalem above shall [then] descend(see next chapter about fashion vs whole world passing away), as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image—that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation. And of this tabernacle Moses received the pattern in the mount;12 and nothing is capable of being allegorized, but all things are stedfast, and true, land substantial, having been made by God for righteous men’s enjoyment. For as it is God truly who raises up man, so also does man truly rise from the dead, and not allegorically, as I have shown repeatedly. And as he rises actually, so also shall he be actually disciplined beforehand for incorruption, and shall go forwards and flourish in the times of the kingdom, in order that he may be capable of receiving the glory of the Father. Then, when all things are made new, he shall truly dwell in the city of God. For it is said, “He that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And the Lord says, Write all this; for these words are faithful and true. And He said to me, They are done.” And this is the truth of the matter.


Irenaeus - Book V - Chaper 36

CHAP. XXXVI.—MEN SHALL BE ACTUALLY RAISED: THE WORLD SHALL NOT BE ANNIHILATED; BUT THERE SHALL BE VARIOUS MANSIONS FOR THE SAINTS, ACCORDING TO THE RANK ALLOTTED TO EACH INDIVIDUAL. ALL THINGS SHALL BE SUBJECT TO GOD THE FATHER, AND SO SHALL HE BE ALL IN ALL.

1. For since there are real men, so must there also be a real establishment (plantationem), that they vanish not away among non-existent things, but progress among those which have an actual existence. For neither is the substance nor the essence of the creation annihilated (for faithful and true is He who has established it), but “the fashion of the world passeth away;” that is, those things among which transgression has occurred, since man has grown old in them. And therefore this [present] fashion has been formed temporary, God foreknowing all things; as I have pointed out in the preceding book,15 and have also shown, as far as was possible, the cause of the creation of this world of temporal things. But when this [present] fashion [of things] passes away, and man has been renewed, and flourishes in an incorruptible state, so as to preclude the possibility of becoming old, [then] there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, in which the new man shall remain [continually], always holding fresh converse with God. And since (or, that) these things shall ever continue without end, Isaiah declares, “For as the new heavens and the new earth which I do make, continue in my sight, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.” And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour2 shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy.
2. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding.4 The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, “For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” For in the times of the kingdom, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die. “But when He saith, All things shall be subdued unto Him, it is manifest that He is excepted who did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”6
3. John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first “resurrection of the just,” and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. The apostle, too, has confessed that the creation shall be free from the bondage of corruption, [so as to pass] into the liberty of the sons of God.8 And in all these things, and by them all, the same God the Father is manifested, who fashioned man, and gave promise of the inheritance of the earth to the fathers, who brought it (the creature) forth [from bondage] at the resurrection of the just, and fulfils the promises for the kingdom of His Son; subsequently bestowing in a paternal manner those things which neither the eye has seen, nor the ear has heard, nor has [thought concerning them] arisen within the heart of man. For there is the one Son, who accomplished His Father’s will; and one human race also in which the mysteries of God are wrought, “which the angels desire to look into;”10 and they are not able to search out the wisdom of God, by means of which His handiwork, confirmed and incorporated with His Son, is brought to perfection; that His offspring, the First-begotten Word, should descend to the creature (facturam), that is, to what had been moulded (plasma), and that it should be contained by Him; and, on the other hand, the creature should contain the Word, and ascend to Him, passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God.

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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by Paidion » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:04 pm

Hi njd, you wrote:But that doesn't exclude God from destroying the wicked.

““Do not fear those who kill the body[soma] but are unable to kill the soul[psyche];
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy[apollumi] both soul[psyche] and body[soma] in Gehenna.” (Matthew 10:28, NASB95 edited)
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

There are many killers here on earth who may threaten us with death. Often these people carry our their threats. Many early Christians were put to death by burning them at stake, or by throwing them to the lions, or subjecting them to gladiators. In the middle ages, even the religious leaders put many to death among those who disagreed with them.

When “the body” is killed, the person is gone, seemingly never to return again. But our Lord assures his listeners that these murdered persons are not gone forever! As stated three times in John 6, He will raise them up again at the last day. So their very essence, their “soul” is not permanently wiped out by death. They cannot “kill the soul”.

Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is important to recognize that some scriptures use “destroy” in a different way from that which the modern person thinks of it. We think of destruction as annihilation, or we think of it as smashing something in such a way that it is rendered useless. It's original form has been altered. But sometimes “destroy” is used in the New Testament in the sense of refining something, so that the original form is altered to a purified form. Consider the following passage from I Peter 1:3-6 ESV and verse 7 (another translation):


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials...

Verse 7
... in order that the testing of your faith, much more valuable than gold that is being destroyed through fire and being tested , may be found for praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Notice it is the testing of your faith which is much more valuable than the testing of gold. Peter speaks of “gold that is being destroyed through fire”. Now we know that gold is not annihilated or even destroyed in the sense of being rendered useless (such as a toy that is destroyed by smashing it). Rather the original form of the gold, the ore, is destroyed and the impurities removed so that after the refining process is complete, only the pure gold remains. So it is with the testing of our faith through various trials. We are refined, impurities removed until we come forth as “pure gold”.

So fear God who is able to destroy in Gehenna a person's original character, by refining that character, and thus altering it. Why should we fear God lest we are required to be so refined? Because it is a very painful process ---- much better that we should coöperate with the enabling grace of God for purification now, so that we won't have to undergo that severe process. Even now, we may have to endure hardships which will help us to submit to present purification as the text indicates.

“but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME[eat] THE ADVERSARIES.” (Hebrews 10:27, NASB95)
Yes, that entire passage indicates a severe judgment. But even that severe judgment may be remedial. Fire is a purifying agent. Perhaps the fire will "eat" the evil out of the adversaries, with the result that they will become servants of the God. Even verses 30 and 31:

30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


The word "εκδικησις" often translated as "vengeance" can having the meaning of "justice" (fairness to all). Here is an example from Luke 18:

1 And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.
2 He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man.
3 And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice (εκδικεω, to give justice, the verbal form of εκδικησις) against my adversary.’
4 For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect man,
5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice (εκδικεω), so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.’”
6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says.
7 And will not God give justice (εκδικεω)to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
8 I tell you, he will give justice (εκδικεω) to them speedily.

Clearly God will not "take vengeance" against his elect.

Also check out 2 Cor 7:11 where Paul uses the noun "εκδικησις" in a passage where he commends the Corinthians for the way in which they treated the man who was copulating with his father's wife. The Corinthian Christians had at first ostracized him, but only for the purpose of influencing him to repent. The man did repent, and the Corinthian Christians forgave him and received him again.

Paul would hardly have said "What vengeance!" in his commendation. Nor "What punishment!" as some translations have it. Rather He said, "What justice!" Or "What vindication!" (as the NKJV translates it).
Last edited by Paidion on Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:05 pm

"The Second Coming of Christ and Resurrection of the Dead (which Christ revealed unto Peter) who died because of their sins, for that they kept not the commandment of God their creator.
And he (Peter) pondered thereon, that he might perceive the mystery of the Son of God, the merciful and lover of mercy."
-Apocalypse of Peter - beginning verses

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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:24 pm

1 Peter 1:7
literal from Greek interlinear, maybe this could help this discussion
"so that the genuineness your of faith more valuable than gold --- that is being destroyed/perishing by fire but is tested may be found to [result in] praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ"
7 ἵνα τὸ δοκίμιον ὑμῶν τῆς πίστεως ⸀πολυτιμότερον χρυσίου τοῦ ἀπολλυμένου διὰ πυρὸς δὲ δοκιμαζομένου εὑρεθῇ εἰς ἔπαινον καὶ ⸂δόξαν καὶ τιμὴν⸃ ἐν ἀποκαλύψει Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
ἀπολλυμένου- "is of the being destroyed" - verb, middle, participle, singular, genitive, neuter

since its genitive it makes me think "its of the creation that is being destroyed/passing away by destruction/being undone/λύω"
“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction[ἀπώλεια] of ungodly[impious, ἀσεβής] men.” (2 Peter 3:7, NASB95)
edit: the word for destroyed in 2 Peter 3:10-11 is "come undone, λύω", not the same as other places with "ἀπώλεια" destruction or "ὄλεθρος" ruin/destruction )
“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed[come undone, λύω] with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed[come undone, λύω] in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy[set apart] conduct[way of life] and godliness[piety, εὐσέβεια],” (2 Peter 3:10–11, NASB95)
maybe he's referring to the gold "being undone", "periodic table" elements coming undone/λύω, coming apart

that is a reasonable interpretation from the greek my friend Paidion. like discussing this with you, although its a tough/scary topic
Last edited by njd83 on Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by Homer » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:31 pm

Hi Paidion,

You posted:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials...

Verse 7
... in order that the testing of your faith, much more valuable than gold that is being destroyed through fire and being tested , may be found for praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Notice it is the testing of your faith which is much more valuable than the testing of gold. Peter speaks of “gold that is being destroyed through fire”. Now we know that gold is not annihilated or even destroyed in the sense of being rendered useless (such as a toy that is destroyed by smashing it). Rather the original form of the gold, the ore, is destroyed and the impurities removed so that after the refining process is complete, only the pure gold remains. So it is with the testing of our faith through various trials. We are refined, impurities removed until we come forth as “pure gold”.
You have referenced this passage many times as though it somehow was applicable to the wicked post judgement. But it is addressed to born again believers who have faith. How then can it be said to apply to unbelievers?

The analogy of refining gold is very appropriate to all believers. After all, it is gold before it is refined, mixed with some amount of impurities as we all are. Look at verse 6; the refining process was occurring during this life for those of faith. Nothing is said about after life refining of unbelievers.

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Paidion
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by Paidion » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:00 pm

Homer, I have posted this passage, not to imply that it refers to the judgment of the unrighteous, but to show that "εκδικησις" may not mean "destruction" at all, since the word is used in this passage and clearly does not mean "destruction."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: All punishment is remedial?

Post by njd83 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:38 pm

I wanted to be a butthead, Homer, =) and and point out that our faith is what's being compared with gold, not who we were before we had faith

But who we are now with faith is like gold with impurities I think is the comparison

Otherwise, that might support Calvinistic doctrine, and I would hate that. Thank God its not compared that way!

Lol just messing around but sorta serious :)

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