Hell and the Lake of Fire?

Post by **_Micah** » Sun May 28, 2006 2:26 am

Mad,

I agree, sometimes it is tough to nail down certain ideas in scripture. Especially those passages that appear in conflict with each other. I will make comments on what my view is on these scriptures below.

Mt 5:19 - Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom of heaven in this passage could be referring to this present age of God’s kingdom. Meaning those who follow Christ, but yet live a sinful life and teach other to do the same will not be respected at all. While those who do live righteous lives will be highly respected.

Now to continue on with the thought, here is verse 20:

20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

In this passage I believe Jesus is referring to those who are just like the Pharisees, people who are Christian in name only, who cannot enter the kingdom of heaven in this present age or the age to come.

Lk 12:46-48 - The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

In this passage there is no place where hell is mentioned. One view of this and it keeps consistent with what I believe is that Jesus is referring to judgment day. Meaning that those who know about Jesus, and have outright rejected him, will receive worse judgment in this life than those who don’t do the right thing out of lack of knowledge.

For example:

Matthew 10: 12-15 –

12 "As you enter the house, give it your greeting.
13 "If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
14 "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Why would a house or city that rejected Christ’s message have worse judgment than Sodom or Gomorrah? I’m sure you can probably agree that Sodom and Gomorrah was far more sinful in our eyes. However, looking at Luke 12 and matching it up with Matthew 10 you can see that Christ found it more condemning to reject him outright instead of living a sinful life without the knowledge of Christ. Hopefully, I am making sense here. Let me know if you see these passages in a different way that would make it consistent with a multi-punishment system in the afterlife. It just seems to me that all the passages that are clear about hell, none of them give any hint to a diverse punishment system. From a human response I can see why one would want to believe that. Who wants people who are good and descent in this life to suffer the same as people who acted like Hitler? Unfortunately, I just don't see where the Bible proclaims multi-punishment in the afterlife to be true. Thanks for your response.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun May 28, 2006 12:37 pm

Lk 12:46-48 - The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

In this passage there is no place where hell is mentioned. One view of this and it keeps consistent with what I believe is that Jesus is referring to judgment day. Meaning that those who know about Jesus, and have outright rejected him, will receive worse judgment in this life than those who don’t do the right thing out of lack of knowledge.

It's not just this passage that "hell" isn't mentioned ,it's not legitimately mentioned anyplace. Yes we have words translated into hell but never understood that way until the RCC translation. I agree it refers to judgement day and it states that the evil servant "will be assigned a place with the unbelievers" which must be after the master returns therefore this must mean the "lake of fire" which is where unbelievers end up and does refer to differing punishments or corrective disciplines but at varying lengths.

Post by **_Evangelion** » Sun May 28, 2006 1:47 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:I had always taken the story of Lazarus to be an actual story. Parables usually consisted of applications being made to make a point. That story seemed to just be making a point without the use of symbols. I could be wrong on that point as well. If it is true, it seems that hades is a place that is torment and flames, which will be transferred to another place of eternal torment and flames (maybe to a greater degree).

Hi Aaron, There is a thread on this page called alternative views of hell you might be interested in. Abraham's bosum is not a biblical term but it was a rabbinical tradition and i believe Jesus used it to talk about the jewish nation looking to Father Abraham for salvation and never finding it through him. IMHO this is a prophecy and has nothing to do with hell. We have a flame but no fire which indicates light of the knowledge of Christ. The Lake of Fire is the only thing IMO resembling hell and after unbelievers are thrown into it scripture never says they are tortured or tormented and in fact Rev 22.17 finds the Spirit and the Bride inviting whosoever to drink from the water of life.

Steve, do you believe that human beings possess immortal souls?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun May 28, 2006 2:31 pm

Steve, do you believe that human beings possess immortal souls?

As far as i know Soren immortality is granted at the resurrection when believers are given incorruptable bodies so i guess the term is called "conditional immortality."

Post by **_Evangelion** » Sun May 28, 2006 2:59 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Steve, do you believe that human beings possess immortal souls?

As far as i know Soren immortality is granted at the resurrection when believers are given incorruptable bodies so i guess the term is called "conditional immortality."

I see.

In that case, we share the same view on this issue.

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon May 29, 2006 12:56 pm

Edward Fudge does a thorough study of this subject in his book" The Fire That Consumes" ISBN 0-85364-587-6 he deals with all pertinent scripture. And shows that Hell is Not a Biblical Concept.

Post by **_Jim** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:33 am

I would think Hell is very real and the lake of fire, but is the fire an internal torment of those who are spiritually seperated permanently from God due to thier choice to reject God.

For example: Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jim

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:57 am

The eternity of the thing is eternal death.
For a superb biblical exposition of the subject of everlasting death versus everlasting torment, the reader is referred to The Fire That Consumes, by Edward Fudge. Writing in the Fall 1990 issue of Resurrection Magazine, Fudge summarized some of the main points of his book as follows:

1. The Old Testament utilizes some 50 Hebrew verbs and 75 figures of speech to describe the ultimate end of the wicked—and every one sounds exactly like total extinction.

2. The notion of unending conscious torment arose for the first time in anything resembling biblical literature in the noncanonical book of Judith—in a clear “twisting” of words taken straight from Isaiah.

3. By Jesus’ day, there were at least three “Jewish” ideas about the end of the wicked: (a) annihilation at the grave; (b) resurrection for everlasting torture; and (c) resurrection for judgment followed by total and irreversible extinction in hell.

4. When our Lord taught on this subject, he generally used Old Testament language which most naturally describes complete disintegration of the entire person in the fire of the Age to Come.

5. New Testament writers choose the word “hell” (gehenna) to describe the fate of the lost only in the Gospels, only speaking to Jews, and only when addressing people familiar with the geography of Jerusalem.

6. Most often, New Testament authors use the words die, death, destroy, destruction, perish and corruption to describe the end of the wicked—in contexts which suggest the normal, straightforward meaning of these ordinary terms.

7. All New Testament expressions thought to teach eternal torment come from earlier biblical literature—where they regularly describe destruction that is irresistible, total, and which cannot be reversed.

8. No passage of Scripture teaches the inherent or natural immortality of the “soul” or of any other aspect of the human creature.

9. Although Scripture clearly affirms a resurrection of both just and unjust, the Bible nowhere says the lost will be raised immortal, as the saved will be.

10. The notion of everlasting torment appears explicitly in Christian literature for the first time in the writings of the Apologists, who expressly base it on the Platonic assumption that the soul is “immortal” and cannot be destroyed. [9]

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... le&sid=647

Post by **_Jim** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:35 am

Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."

2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. It is eternal seperation from God. No hope, No joy, No love. It is were those who reject Christ go when they choose to be permenantly seperated from God. God out of His love gives those who reject Christ what they want. To teach otherwise, saying if you don't want God you will be completely erased from existance will send many people to Hell. The Good news is that Jesus came for us so we can be with God and not seperated from Him.

jesusfollower, do you believe Jesus is God in flesh, worthy of the same honor as the Father, the creator of all, the risen Lord? If you cannot say yes, then I suggest to you that you are not a Christian and need to re-examine your beliefs.

Here is something to think on. Immanuel = God with us; Jesus = Jehovah is salvation; Jehovah = the unchanging, eternal, self-existent God. So who is Jesus to you?

Post by **_JC** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:52 am

The bible speaks everywhere of Jesus giving believers eternal life. My question is... if the saved will inherit life, doesn't it follow that the unsaved will inherit death? If this is not the case, then what is meant by life and death when Jesus speaks to his followers about gaining eternal life?