Introduction and testimony

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dizerner

Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by dizerner » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:52 am

So then why did the disciples need Pentecost and why would they receive power if they had all they needed. Doesn't God have times and seasons?

crgfstr1
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Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by crgfstr1 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:04 am

dizerner, can you expand on that? It seems to me that the passages on that support "each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language" indicates that speaking in tongues is speaking in languages known to someone present though not to the speaker. It even sounds to me like in that case they were able to speak once where all heard in their own language without translation.

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dwight92070
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Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:19 am

If the 2nd experience doctrine is correct, then John the Baptist should have said, "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire, but before that can happen, you must experience the new birth or salvation." No, John spoke about what Jesus would do as a single event.

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dwight92070
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Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:25 am

Responding to diszerner's question: Because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:37-39

dizerner

Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by dizerner » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:40 pm

crgfstr1 wrote:dizerner, can you expand on that? It seems to me that the passages on that support "each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language" indicates that speaking in tongues is speaking in languages known to someone present though not to the speaker. It even sounds to me like in that case they were able to speak once where all heard in their own language without translation.
I wasn't talking about tongues (that's not all that happened at Pentecost), but Paul did say he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks to God not men and edifies himself.

dizerner

Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by dizerner » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:51 pm

dwight92070 wrote:If the 2nd experience doctrine is correct, then John the Baptist should have said, "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire, but before that can happen, you must experience the new birth or salvation." No, John spoke about what Jesus would do as a single event.
Let me just simply ask—do you think no one was saved/born again before Pentecost?

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dwight92070
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Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:12 pm

The Old Testament is filled with references to God's salvation available to men of faith, so, yes, I believe multitudes were saved before Pentecost, but being born again and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit, which I believe are the same, appears to have a starting point - at Pentecost. Again, John 7:39 says " ... for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

dizerner

Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by dizerner » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:03 pm

When was Peter born again?

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willowtree
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Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by willowtree » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:27 am

dwight92070 wrote:If the 2nd experience doctrine is correct, then John the Baptist should have said, "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire, but before that can happen, you must experience the new birth or salvation." No, John spoke about what Jesus would do as a single event.
First let me say, Dwight, that I have really enjoyed your testimony. I believe that our personal testimony is one of the most powerful of all the words that we can speak. It is usually given in such a way that no one can argue with what we have personally experienced, and can be expressed with conviction that is hard to refute. So thanks.

I want to respond to the question of a second experience in our Christian walk. I have been a member of a holiness church (Nazarene) since I was a kid, and so have been exposed to this doctrine for a long time. However, I have not had much exposure to speaking in tongues.

It is a pity that you have short-quoted above what John said. You missed out this part. "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit...." The repentance part, I believe, is an essential prerequisite for being filled with the Holy Spirit.

There are at several reasons why I believe in a 'second' work of grace.

1. It is qualitatively different from the first. The experience of being born again deals with forgiveness, sins (plural), repentance, guilt, justification - all related to things in our past that have been offensive to God and to ourselves as well. We become a new creation in Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit is active in this event. It is only when we have been made anew in the blood of Christ that we begin to wee aspects of our lives that we had never seen before. The second work of grace prepares us for the calling that God has for us and empowers us for that work. Some of the terms that surround this work include cleansing, purifying, commitment, surrender, sin (singular - as in the nature of sin), sanctification, entire sanctification, empowerment and filling of the Holy Spirit. They are all present and forward looking.

2. All of our experiences of spiritual grace are prompted by a sense of need for God to do something in our lives. We sense a need, we call out to God, he responds and by faith we receive his grace. The work done in the second work of grace cannot be done before the first (repentance), because the awareness of the need that the second requires is overshadowed by the more urgent need to repent. It is not until we have seen the fruits of repentance, that we begin to see that there is more that God wants to do in our lives. When we first respond to the moving of God in our lives with conviction of sin, the need to repent and receive God's gift of salvation is the focus of our search. Seldom, (never in my experience) have I heard of someone seriously considering whether God wants him to be a missionary at a time when he has not even been converted. As sinners, we come to God, 'dead in our trespasses and sins'. It is not until after we have found new life in Christ that we can begin to understand the commitment and what it really means to follow him that we can seriously address the commission that Christ calls us to and in which the Holy Spirit empowers us for.

3. In the testimonies of missionaries, effective Christian leaders, and spiritual pioneers that I have read, all of them have testified to a significant working of God in their lives after they had been born again, but before they had really begun to be spiritually effective in their ministry. Ask around and find out for yourself. Seek out those whom you feel are serving Christ effectively, and ask them if there was a time in their lives when they noticed a significant change in the effectiveness of their spiritual ministry, then ask them if that was the time they were born again, or later. Then ask them what made that second experience so different.
There are many in the New Testament that fit this criteria. The apostles at Pentecost are a prime example, The believers in Ephesus, another. Even Jesus. After he was baptized by John he was led by the Spirit into the wilderness where he was tempted by the devil. Jesus' temptations are not dissimilar to the commitment Christ calls us to make when we are led by his Spirit in the direction of our ministry. We must learn to be fully dependent on him for all our needs (bread). We must not take short cuts (leap off the temple) on our way to reach the people to whom we minister, and we must never bow down before Satan. These issues were clearly not in focus when we were born again, but later, when the Holy Spirit begins to lead in our lives, the magnitude of them becomes very apparent. Note that we don't grow into[sanctification, we grow in it.

4. The types and shadows in the Old Testament clearly mark out two significant 'stages' in the journey of the Israelites before they became were able to do the work that God had planned for them - conquer and dwell in the promised land. The journey of the children of Israel from Exodus to the promised land is a portrayal of our spiritual journey in Christ. Egypt is the land of sin, and Canaan is the land of promise. The Israelites did not enter the promised land immediately when they emerged from the Red Sea. They had experienced God's deliverance in a remarkable way and participated in the passover, a foreshadowing of the blood of Christ that would be shed for their sins ( repentance and deliverance from sin). Yhey were not in the land of bondage anymore. In their wilderness experience they learned about God, organized themselves as a nation, received his commandments, began to understand about the evil of idol worship, and more. On entering into Canaan, a whole new experience awaited them. They were circumcised (a practice that usually followed birth), they were called to consecrate their lives, so that the Lord could do great things among them. God took away the reproach of Egypt. And they were called to walk in obedience to God to see his mighty hand in bringing down the walls of Jericho. The destroyed city was to be dedicated wholly to the Lord. The Jericho events are shadows of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

In a commentary I read on-line regarding the exodus and journey of the Hebrews to the promised land, the writer commented that Moses' first task was to get the Israelites out of Eqypt. His second task was to get Egypt out of the Israelites. That is why we need two works of grace.

Graeme
If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, always head for the rock. Ps 62..

dizerner

Re: Introduction and testimony

Post by dizerner » Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:19 am

Really great post Graeme what I wanted to express but was clumsily incapable of doing...

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