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‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to Unite

Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Postby Homer » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:22 pm

Homer, I think you will find that few if any proponents of original sin hold that babies are born guilty of sin. Rather they hold that babies are born with a tendency to sin, with a sinful nature, this nature being inherited biologically from our original ancestors—Adam and Eve.

Then why the necessity of the "immaculate conception?
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Postby Paidion » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:49 pm

My guess is that Catholic theology requires that in order for Jesus to have been born without the sinful nature inherited from Adam and Eve, both his parents (Mary and God) had to be without that nature.

I have been unable to find any sites that say that original sin refers to people being born guilty of sin. You may want to check out the following sites:

The Catholic Encyclopedia

Wikipedia

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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Postby Homer » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:12 am

Paidion,

From Wikipedia doesn't this indicate that every child is born bearing the guilt of Adam's sin?

Original sin, also called ancestral sin, is the Christian doctrine of humanity's state of sin resulting from the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt.

There may be some Protestants with a harsher view than the Roman church. I do know the RC maintains that an unbaptized infant, though the infant may not go to hell, never the less will never see God.
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Postby Homer » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:36 pm

Paidion,

Additional info from "The Teaching of the Catholic Church" by Josef Neuner, S.J., and Heinrich Roos, S.J., Chapter Five, Original Sin:

The original sin of the first man became the inherited sin of all men. Because of it man needs redemption, for he is guilty before God and needs a redeemer to make the atonement man owes to God.

Original sin does not consist of a weakening or corruption, of human nature as such, but is primarily 'sin' - that is, participation by every man in the state of guilt before God into which Adam entered by the first sin.


(My underlining)
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Postby dizerner » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:29 pm

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Last edited by dizerner on Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Postby Paidion » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:29 pm

Yes, Homer, the Wikipedia article does include "automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt" in the "drastic" end of the spectrum of understanding.

And yes, the quotes you made from Neuner and Roos's book, clearly teach inherited sin. Thank you for these references. I hadn't encountered that teaching before. As long as I remember, I have understood "original sin" as referring to inherited sinful natures, that is, natures with a tendency to sin, but not the inheritance of sin itself.
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Postby Jim » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:26 am

TK wrote:I meant to add that the "hellishness" of the mass is the idea of the repeated sacrifice on Calvary. I thought He died once for all (Rom 6:10). Of course I don't think anything of the sort is really happening at the mass; but that fact that millions believe this is pretty morbid.


Wow, talk about a miss understanding of the Eucharist. You do understand that the sacrifice on Calvary is NOT repeated. What is received in the Eucharist is the feast after the sacrifice. See the OT were the Priest (all of us now) eat the lamb after the sacrifice was offered up to God. This OT shadow is now realized in the Eucharist, which Christ Jesus Himself gives to us. We, as Christians, always give back, offer back up to God in thanksgiving and praise, what He has given.
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.
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Re: ‘Together 2016’ Organizer Meets With ‘Pope Francis’ to U

Postby Jim » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:42 am

TK wrote:Alan-

What about the idea that Mary was born w/o original sin (Immaculate conception?) and that she was sinless during her lifetime? I have heard this is a doctrine held by Catholics but perhaps not. I also think there is a belief that she was taken up to heaven bodily (the Assumption, I believe).


I agree that the Immaculate conception is wrong and unnecessary doctrine for those who hold to the view of ancestral sin instead of the western concept of Original Sin. She suffered the consequences of the fall just as all of us (death and corruption), but I also believe that she of all of the women in history, was able to choose not to sin through her obedience and purification that took place as she lived at the Temple. It is believed the purpose of Israel was to raise a woman that would say yes or could say yes and be the new Eve. Christ Jesus took from the Theotokos a body and healed human nature in Himself. If, as St Athanasius said is true, that which is not assumed is not redeemed, then Christ had to take on our fallen nature and heal it (by our stripes he heals us), which if the Catholic dogma is true then human nature is not redeemed because Christ has not taken on our nature.

My main beef with the immaculate conception is it harms the incarnation.
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