Rome's Challenge - Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday?

[RND]

You suggest that there is blood on Luther's hands. You have endorsed a judgment against Luther in that such statement. What do you think of Jesus' words that those who believe upon Him pass from judgment into eternal life? (John 5:24 paraphrased)

I suggest that (get this) Luther's blood regarding the sabbath is on Luther's hands. And frankly, I do not know what was in Luther's heart. It is obvious the man was given an understanding of the sabbath and rejected it. He also hated Jews.

On the Jews and Their Lies

Does another Christian call people names like whore and sluts? Did Jesus?

hmm. Not exactly.
I didn't understand what your were talking about. Now I have seen that you explain your thought a little further into your response -- so after seeing that explanation I have edited this answer.

Clarity is a good thing!

I assume that you are confused on the statement about you being a judge -- the confusion probably occurs from the problems we encounter in textual discussions.
I was saying that you were condemning Luther based on your opinion of the Sunday or Sabbath concept. You gave preferential treatment to the opponent of Luther because that opponent had your view. Are you advocating that doctrine is now established by democracy?

Come again? I never condemned Luther he condemns himself by rejecting the truth that was brought to him. I never said he was saved or any such thing. Pay closer attention to what is being stated.

Your attempt to condemn Luther on this shows your interest in condemnation (an attribute of those who follow the Law of Moses) rather than on proper dialogue

Excuse me? I point out that Luther rejected the sabbath and somehow that condemning him?

Ok. Finally something we can agree upon. But now also note that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath rest. There is no further action we could do to fulfill the Sabbath any further beyond complete fulfillment.
But if you need to relax some, you have the freedom in Christ to do that.

You have a woeful understanding of Hebrews 3 and 4.

There is no change of what the Sabbath meant or when it was.

That's having you cake and eating it too theology.

The Sabbath was a requirement upon Israelites.

Read Exodus 20:10. Still think so? Remember, "One law...."

Christians never were obligated to Sabbath or Sunday.

Abraham saw Jesus' coming an was glad. He was the first "Christian."

I must have slept through that wonderful statement.
So if scripture shows no basis for believers to follow Sunday or Sabbath how does that make me a follower of the Cardinal?

That's just it. There are no scriptures that say Christians don't have to keep the sabbath and there are none that authorize the solemnity of Sunday.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger (that's you), that join themselves to the LORD (by acceptance), to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; (taking hold of the covenant by serving the Lord and recognizing the sabbath).

Are you saying that anyone who doesn't have perfect doctrine is paying homage to Rome?

I'm saying exactly what Cardinal Gibbons stated. If you stand solely on scripture (sola scriptura) and reject the authority of the RCC as Luther did, and yet you reject the lesson of the sabbath then yes, you are paying homage to Rome.

This is not very convincing to me that your view on Sabbath is correct.

Hey, don't take my word for it....read the scriptures.

If you like the Cardinal and his ilk. You can join the Catholics.

Not possible. They don't keep the true sabbath.

I see your view and the Cardinal's and Luther's view as incongruent with scripture.

No doubt.

So where does that leave you if you and the Cardinal and Luther were all wrong?

This discussion isn't quite bringing us to a similar viewpoint.

Maybe you should try wrestling with Cardinal Gibbons statements then.

[mikew]

You suggest that there is blood on Luther's hands. You have endorsed a judgment against Luther in that such statement. What do you think of Jesus' words that those who believe upon Him pass from judgment into eternal life? (John 5:24 paraphrased)

I suggest that (get this) Luther's blood regarding the sabbath is on Luther's hands. And frankly, I do not know what was in Luther's heart. It is obvious the man was given an understanding of the sabbath and rejected it. He also hated Jews.

Then stop evaluating him on the basis of your opinion on doctrine. What does it help to debate against Luther when he is no longer available to answer back? You have said enough times that you disagree with him. Now you should be able to discuss something else. Or is this the only stick you have to bash people with?

On the Jews and Their Lies

Does another Christian call people names like whore and sluts? Did Jesus?

Please note that many forums don't "allow" posting articles as responses. But looking at the link I think I've heard bad stuff about Luther before.

But to answer your first question, then yes there have been Christians mocking Jews, yet Paul still wrote a letter to them as still being Christians to correct their bad behavior. This is what Paul was doing in the Letter to the Romans.

And as I think was showing in our discussion on another topic, there was a prophetic fulfillment involving the derision of Jews in the first century. Again nothing, even in prophetic fulfillment, makes a sinful act good to do by the one sinning.

Part of the passage I quoted in that other discussion Not Subject to the Law of God? is quoted here again:

He said, “I will hide my face from them.
I will see what their end shall be;
for they are a very perverse generation,
children in whom is no faithfulness.
32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God.
They have provoked me to anger with their vanities.
I will move them to jealousy with those who are not a people.
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

So,the last sentence in this quote from Deut. is an example of what God explained would happen to Jews.

But the worse problem here is that you are taking on a holier-than-thou judgmental attitude again in violation of Rom 14:4. Jesus addressed a similar issue in Matt 23 against the Pharisees.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous,
(30)and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we wouldn’t have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

You are blind to your own judgmental attitude (an attribute of people who purport to follow the Law) and say you aren't of the same ilk as Luther so then you think you are better than him. God saves us in spite of our blatant sins. And I am having to repeat the words applicable to believers, which Luther probably was, that we see in John 5:24

“Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

I share this with you in hope that it truly benefits you in a walk with Christ.

My talks with Seventh Day Adventists have been minimal or nil until now, so I haven't learned if such judgmental attitude comes as the norm. But I have regrets in my past for following a Christian group that thought it was the only group who was right with God -- thus this group was judgmental of other groups. So I'm asking "Are all SDA members condemning of most Protestant groups?"

Nowadays I try to be a bit tolerant and to assume the best, for example that a person is a true believer in spite of his differing doctrines. My task then is to share and discuss what I have learned and to try and learn from other people too -- each joint supplies -- toward the goal that we can have better doctrines even though we aren't saved by our doctrines.

[RND]

Then stop evaluating him on the basis of your opinion on doctrine. What does it help to debate against Luther when he is no longer available to answer back? You have said enough times that you disagree with him. Now you should be able to discuss something else. Or is this the only stick you have to bash people with?

I didn't bring Luther up Mike, you did. I have neither said anything to judge Luther nor insinuated anything about him - whether he is saved, lost, etc.

If you want to drop the subject be my guest.

Please note that many forums don't "allow" posting articles as responses. But looking at the link I think I've heard bad stuff about Luther before.

Luther's words speak for themselves, just as yours or mine, do they not?

But to answer your first question, then yes there have been Christians mocking Jews, yet Paul still wrote a letter to them as still being Christians to correct their bad behavior. This is what Paul was doing in the Letter to the Romans.

Is that an apology for "Christians" that killed and persecuted Jews? I seem to recall Paul saying that if someone was a murderer, fornicator, etc. they had no place in the Kingdom of the Lord.

And as I think was showing in our discussion on another topic, there was a prophetic fulfillment involving the derision of Jews in the first century. Again nothing, even in prophetic fulfillment, makes a sinful act good to do by the one sinning.

Part of the passage I quoted in that other discussion Not Subject to the Law of God? is quoted here again:

He said, “I will hide my face from them.
I will see what their end shall be;
for they are a very perverse generation,
children in whom is no faithfulness.
32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God.
They have provoked me to anger with their vanities.
I will move them to jealousy with those who are not a people.
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

So,the last sentence in this quote from Deut. is an example of what God explained would happen to Jews.

The Israelites problems centered around their ignoring God and His commandments, not anything else. They were a "foolish nation" for not listening to Him. The "judgments" they suffered that were predicted in Deuteronomy were fulfilled long before the first century. See the Book of Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Kings I, II, III and IV.

But the worse problem here is that you are taking on a holier-than-thou judgmental attitude again in violation of Rom 14:4. Jesus addressed a similar issue in Matt 23 against the Pharisees.

That's your opinion Mike. I have said nothing that can be considered "judgmental."

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous,
(30)and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we wouldn’t have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Right, the Pharisees of Jesus' day didn't like the truth He brought them anymore than the truth the prophets such as Isaiah and Jeremiah brought. All three were killed.

I'd like to see how you equate Luther with being a "prophet."

You are blind to your own judgmental attitude (an attribute of people who purport to follow the Law) and say you aren't of the same ilk as Luther so then you think you are better than him. God saves us in spite of our blatant sins. And I am having to repeat the words applicable to believers, which Luther probably was, that we see in John 5:24

Who's being judgmental here Mike? I'd love to see the quote I made that can even be construed as "judgmental" against Luther.

“Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

I share this with you in hope that it truly benefits you in a walk with Christ.

I have a great walk with Christ Jesus - through His Holy Spirit He brought me to the truth about the sabbath and the Torah and Tanakh.

My talks with Seventh Day Adventists have been minimal or nil until now, so I haven't learned if such judgmental attitude comes as the norm. But I have regrets in my past for following a Christian group that thought it was the only group who was right with God -- thus this group was judgmental of other groups. So I'm asking "Are all SDA members condemning of most Protestant groups?"

Who "condemned" any protestant groups?

Nowadays I try to be a bit tolerant and to assume the best, for example that a person is a true believer in spite of his differing doctrines. My task then is to share and discuss what I have learned and to try and learn from other people too -- each joint supplies -- toward the goal that we can have better doctrines even though we aren't saved by our doctrines.

Well, with that said, have you learned any truth about the sabbath?

Mike, if you want to paint me as someone who's "judgmental" for simply saying that the truth Luther was given regarding the sabbath was rejected that's your business. It is definitely easier to do that than it is to seriously study the truth of the matter.